difficult text

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Tue Oct 5 08:20:50 EDT 1999


At 6:17 PM -0700 10/4/99, Steve Puluka wrote:
>>At 11:24 PM -0600 10/4/99, Felipe Flores-Morelos wrote:
>> >I'm trying to translate the Divine Liturgy of Saint John
> > > Chrysostom, and I find a difficult text, maybe someone whishes
>> > to help me a little: The text is TA SA EK TWN SWN SOI
>> > PROSFEROMEN KATA PANDA KAI DIA PANDA  (ta
>> >sa ek twn swn soi prosferomen kata panta kai dia panta) , Thanks.
>>
>>I think this is "What is yours (TA SA) from what is yours (EK TWN SWN) we
>>offer to you (SOI PROSFEROMEN) on every occasion (KATA PANTA)  and for
>>every reason (DIA PANTA)."
>>
>>Carl W. Conrad
>>
>>There may be other accounts of the phrases KATA PANTA and DIA PANTA.
>>Another way to express the idea, as I understand it,
>>and in English that better fits normal English usage is: "Whatever we offer
>>you, whatever the occasion and whatever the reason that we offer it, it
>>belongs to you and comes from you."
>>
>The official English translation for the Byzantine Ruthenian jurisdiction
>reads "We off to You Yours of Your own, in behalf of all and for all."
>However, this comes to English through the Old Slavonic, which reads "Tvoja
>ot Tvojich Teb'i prinosim, o vs'ich i za vsja."
>
>I'm curious as to how close the English matches the Greek after the pass
>through the Old Slavonic.  This English is a very good  rendering of the Old
>Slavonic.  My Greek is not this good yet.
>
>This moment of the Liturgy is during the Anaphora where the bread and wine
>are being consecrated.  The priest is elevating the square piece of bread
>called the lamb, representing Christ and offering this as a sacrifice to
>God.  Hence, the sense of offering to God that which is already God's, his
>own son.  This offering is made on behalf of all the people and for the
>people's salvation.
>
>See "The Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom"  By Basil Shereghy or
>"Introduction to Liturgical Theology by Alexander Schmemann for more
>details.

Here are a couple more versions of the line:

"Thine own of Thine own, we offer You, in behalf of all, and for all."
(from Byzantines.net: http://www.byzantines.net/liturgy/liturgy.htm )

"Thine own of thine own we offer to Thee, in all and for all."
(translation of the Most Reverend Archbishop Germanos, Archbishop of
Thyateira,in _The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom_ ed. & arr. by Rev.
George Mastrantonis, St. Louis, 1966.

What I find rather fascinating here is the diversity of renderings of the
rather vague prepositional phrases KATA PANTA and DIA PANTA.


Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics/Washington University
One Brookings Drive/St. Louis, MO, USA 63130/(314) 935-4018
Home: 7222 Colgate Ave./St. Louis, MO 63130/(314) 726-5649
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu 
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