IDIOMS

Theodore H Mann thmann at juno.com
Wed Dec 27 08:12:27 EST 2000


Does TOUTO GAR CARIS EI...  (1 Pet. 2:19) qualify as an idiom? It is
translated "For this is commendable... "

Ted

Dr. Theodore "Ted" H.  Mann
thmann at juno.com
http://www.homestead.com/ChristianResourcesLinks/index.html


On Tue, 26 Dec 2000 22:46:27 -0700 "Wayne Leman" <wleman at mcn.net> writes:
> Phil responded:
> 
> >
> > > She has a green thumb.
> > > He kicked the bucket.
> > > Your eyes are bigger than your stomach.
> >
> > As you rightly explain, these are more "figures of speech" that 
> idioms...
> 
> 
> Sorry, Phil, I didn't communicate clearly enuf: the above 3 English
> sentences are precisely examples with English idioms. They are not 
> some
> other figures of speech. My struggle has been trying to determine 
> whether
> some specific example in NT Greek is a true idiom or some other 
> figure of
> speech, such as euphemism, metonymy, etc.
> 
> >but my question/comment
> > may head off in another direction.  Can you distinguish between a 
> Figure
> of Speech and Euphemistic
> > language?
> 
> Euphemism is one class of figures of speech. Figures of speech is 
> the larger
> set of which euphemisms are  subset.
> 
> >  An example might be the use of "he is asleep" for "he is dead."  
> It seems
> to me that
> > these sorts of things cannot be translated as strict literal 
> phrases.
> 
> Exactly. Very few languages, including English, use that original
> Semiticism, which, unfortunately, has been preserved in many English 
> Bible
> versions. It is not an accurate translation of the original meaning 
> of the
> Greek text. Accurate translation calls for preserving the original 
> meaning
> and making sure that if the original text was figurative that that
> figurative meaning has been expressed accurately in the translation 
> language
> so that the readers of the translation understand its original 
> meaning. We
> can field test with users of translations to determine if they 
> understand
> "fall asleep" to mean "to die." Of course, I think most of us on 
> this list
> already know what the answer would be before we field test.
> 
> >
> > Two situations may arise.  There may be some cultures that do not
> understand sleep = dead, so their
> > own cultural Figure of Speech (idiom) must be used.
> 
> Correct.
> 
> > A second problem is when a literal phrase is
> > offensive in a culture and it usually "idiomized," referred to in 
> a FoS.
> 
> Specifically, a euphemism, which is what "fall asleep" is in NT 
> Greek
> (borrowed from Hebraic usage).
> 
> >  The translator has to be
> > aware of how the biblical FoS comes across in English, and must 
> choose to
> translate more or less
> > literally.
> 
> 
> Correct, depending on whether users of the translation accurately 
> understand
> the original meaning from the translation wordings we use. We can 
> determine
> their understanding by asking them, the scientific process of field 
> testing.
> 
> > The Hebrew Bible is especially full of colorful language that is 
> lost in
> translation,
> > and rightly so.
> 
> But it is interesting to footnote it because it is so colorful, 
> often,
> earthy, and lively. Figures of speech enliven language all 
> throughout the
> world. We just need to be sure we translate them properly into other
> languages so their figurative meaning is understood accurately. A 
> huge
> amount of the NT is written in figurative language and with 
> rhetorical
> devices such as irony and hyperbole, so that we can easily miss the
> originally intended message if we simply translate the words.
> 
> Wayne
> ----
> Wayne Leman
> Bible translation website: 
> http://www.geocities.com/bible_translation
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> 
> 
> 
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