ALLHLWN
Gie Vleugels
gvleugels at etf.edu
Mon Dec 23 03:08:33 EST 2002
Sorry for the Dutch. I copied it from the syntax course I prepared for my students (Greek II) and forgot to translate it into English. Now in English:
"Take care: ALLHL- cannot allways be taken strictly recipocal. E.g. in James 5:16 there is a one-way traffic: the elders pray for the sick, and the sick confess their sins to the elders. The logic behind this use is that this one-way traffic takes place within one community, so that one can still speak of a kind of reciprocity."
You write: "Gie's interpretation of this verse was very likely ruled out by the use of ALLHLWN". Isn't the use of ALLHLWN exactly what we're trying to figure out? We shouldn't allow a preconceived idea about "the use of ALLHLWN" settle the interpretation in each individual passage. This is what semantics is all about.
Gie Vleugels
www.etf.edu
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Peter Kirk [mailto:prkirk at pmbx.net]
Verzonden: zaterdag 21 december 2002 1:16
Aan: Biblical Greek
Onderwerp: [b-greek] RE: ALLHLWN
Thanks for these examples.
I think Iver has adequately explained why Acts 7:26 is reciprocal. A
quarrel can hardly be one-sided.
You mention James 5:16, but only in Dutch so I don't understand much of
what you write. I would find any suggestion that "confess your sins to
one another" means "confess your sins to the elders" an illegitimate
importation of later church practice.
As for Eph 5:21, that is the passage I had in mind originally. I asked
the question about ALLHLWN because I thought that Gie's interpretation
of this verse was very likely ruled out by the use of ALLHLWN. I could
add that there is much in the following passage to suggest that the
author did have reciprocity in mind, for husbands and wives in 5:33 and
for slaves and masters in TA AUTA POIETE, 6:9.
Peter Kirk
peter.r.kirk at ntlworld.com
http://web.onetel.net.uk/~peterkirk/
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gie Vleugels [mailto:gvleugels at etf.edu]
> Sent: 19 December 2002 21:36
> To: Biblical Greek
> Cc: b-greek at franklin.metalab.unc.edu
> Subject: [b-greek] RE: ALLHLWN
>
> The use of ALLHLOUS in Acts 7:26 is remarkable: hINATI ADIKEITE
ALLHLOUS;
> In 7:27 (and in the Exodus passage it's referring to) it becomes clear
> that the ADIKEIN is done by the one to the other, and not vice versa:
hO
> DE ADIKWN TON PLHSION ... What ALLHLOUS means is that this ADIKEIN
> happened within the community.
> Something similar can be said about Eph. 5:21: hUPOTASSOMENOI ALLHLOIS
> means subordination within the community, namely wifes should be
> subordinate to their husbands, children to their parents and slaves to
> their masters. Insisting on reciprocity (i.e. husbands to wifes,
parents
> to children and masters to slaves) because of ALLHLOIS in vers 21 is
> totally missing the point.
> Gie Vleugels
> www.etf.edu
>
> Opgelet: ajllhvl- is niet altijd strikt wederkerig te verstaan. In
Jak.
> 5:16 bijvoorbeeld gaat het om eenrichtingsverkeer: de oudsten bidden
voor
> de zieken, en de zieken belijden hun zonden aan de oudsten. De logica
> achter het gebruik van het wederkerig voornaamwoord is dat dit
> eenrichtingsverkeer plaatsvindt binnen één gemeenschap, zodat toch nog
> sprake is van een zekere wederkerigheid. Vergelijk Ef. 5:21 en Hand.
> 7:26-27.
>
>
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: Mike Sangrey [mailto:msangrey at BlueFeltHat.org]
> Verzonden: woensdag 18 december 2002 15:02
> Aan: Biblical Greek
> Onderwerp: [b-greek] RE: ALLHLWN
>
>
> On Tue, 2002-12-17 at 23:57, Iver Larsen wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> > Acts 19:38 EGKALEITWSAN ALLHLOIS
> >
> > If Demetrius and his group have a complaint against someone, then
"let
> them
> > bring charges against one another." Again we have two subgroups, the
> > accusers and the accused who together form a group of involved
parties.
> The
> > first subgroup is not bringing mutual charges against themselves,
but it
> is
> > possible that the accusers and the accused will mutually charge one
> another,
> > although we would normally expect one party to bring charges and the
> other
> > party to bring a defense.
>
> We would normally expect one party to bring charges against another;
> however, my understanding is their court system worked differently at
> that time. In their case (ummmm, pun intended), the accusser could be
> found guilty just as easily as the accused. In other words, their
> judicial system was inherently more reciprocal.
>
> >
> > My guess it that in the particular verse you are referring to, the
> question
> > cannot be resolved by referring to ALLHLOIS alone. There are other
> crucial
> > factors, for instance, is the command really directed to all
believers
> or to
> > a subgroup? Context is as always crucial.
>
> Personally, I think the best way of seeing the mutuality of ALLHLOIS
is
> to view the group from the outside, sort of as a spectator. For
> example, Rev. 6:4 shows, quite obviously, that the action can not be
> perfectly and absolutely reciprocal. How could everyone be killing
> everyone? However, looking at the event from the outside, as a
> spectator, the description conveys the idea of utter chaos--the
> spectator can not tell who is killing whom. There's no one individual
> who is "standing his ground" and winning.
>
> It's the same with the 1 Pet 5:5 passage. When looking at the group
as
> a whole, who is the more humble. Well, you can't tell. At least
that's
> the ideal. There's a mutual humility going on in the group.
>
> --
> Mike Sangrey
> msangrey at BlueFeltHat.org
> Landisburg, Pa.
> "The first one last wins."
> "A net of highly cohesive details reveals the truth."
>
>
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