The implied verb in Eph 2:8

Toby Anderson kjvonly21 at hotmail.com
Mon Sep 30 11:37:54 EDT 2002


Greetings Mr Vullo,

Thanks for the informative reply.

This 'advanced Greek' is much different than 'advanced math'. In math, the
advanced part just adds to the beginning part. In Greek, it appears that
the rules in the advanced part serve to contradict the rules in the
beginning part.

If what you say is true, than observe the following anomolies:
1. In beginning Greek, we are taught nominative means subject,
   you tell me it doesn't if there is an implied subject.
2. In beginning Greek we are taught to identify a verb,
   you tell me both phrases in Eph 2:8 contain implied verbs and subjects,
   yet how you identified them as such, I have no idea. How so?
3. In beginning Greek Friberg tells us that touto is dative, you tell us
not so.

Grammar is the breaking down of words into various patterns. It appears to
me that advanced Grammar breaks up words into non-patterns.

A lively stone,
  Toby

> On Saturday, September 28, 2002, at 01:09 PM, Toby Anderson wrote:
> 
> Eph 2.8: THi GAR CARITI ESTE SESWSMENOI DIA PISTEWS; KAI TOUTO OUK EX 
> hUMWN, QEOU TO DWRON;
> 
> > There is a semi-colon after faith (pistews) in Friberg's 'Analytical 
> > Greek
> > New Testament'. This is helpful as it indicates that the stuff after
> > 'pistews' might be a clause.
> 
> Actually  two clauses. KAI TOUTO OUK EX hUMWN ("and this [is] not of 
> yourselves") and QEOU TO DWRON ("it is the gift of God") are distinct 
> independent clauses, both able to stand on their own.
> 
> > 'touto' (that) is dative, indicating an object ---- an object of a
> > verb... but there is no verb in eph 2:8 except 'are saved' which is in
> > the
> > previous 'clause'.
> > If 'touto' is part of a separate clause, then the verb must be
> > implied, right?
> 
> TOUTO cannot be dative. Neuter singular dative is TOUTWi. Nor is it an 
> object, since implied ESTIN could not take an object. TOUTO in this 
> case is neuter singular nominative, the subject of implied ESTIN. OUK 
> EX hUMWN is the predicate, both OUK and EX hUMWN complementing implied 
> ESTIN.
> 
> Also, TOUTO (hOUTOS) technically doesn't mean "that." It is the 
> proximate demonstrative, more naturally meaning "this." For "that" the 
> remote demonstrative EKEINO (EKEINOS) would be the natural choice.
> 
> > 'dwron' (gift) is nominative, hence, the subject --- the subject
> > needs a verb, but, once again, there is no verb in eph 2:8
> > except 'are saved'. If 'dwron' is part of a separate clause, then the
> > verb must be implied, right?
> 
> DWRON is indeed nominative, but that does not mean it is the subject. 
> In this case the subject is the implied third personal pronoun with 
> ESTIN. When trying to determine which is subject and which is predicate
> nominative, the pronoun, whether explicit or implied, trumps all (see 
> Wallace, 42ff.). The verb is implied, as you say. It is ESTIN.
> 
> > So, what we have is:
> >
> >  <an object of a verb> <no verb>, and <the subject>
> >
> >  In English, the subject usually comes first, so we have:
> >
> > 'The gift of God' <no verb> 'that not of yourselves'
> 
> As I mentioned above, there are two distinct clauses here, both with 
> ESTIN implied.
> 
> > I believe 'that' is a pronominal adjective, hence 'that' is short
> > for 'that' and an antecedental 'noun', the identification of which is
> > not necessary for what I'm discussin right noun.
> 
> TOUTO is a demonstrative pronoun that here functions substantivally, 
> i.e., as a noun. It stands in the place of its antecedent, hence it 
> does not qualify it.
> ============
> 
> Steven R. Lo Vullo
> Madison, WI



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