[B-Greek] RE: B-Greek Digest, Vol 4, Issue 20

edward edward at christiandefense.org
Mon Apr 21 02:25:06 EDT 2003


Could you please take me off your email list.

Thank you

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Tense of EXESTH Mk. 3:21 (Carl W. Conrad)
   2. translation John 1:3 (Sidney Martin)
   3. Two Questions (bertdehaan at gosympatico.ca)
   4. Re: Two Questions (Kevin Woodruff)
   5. Re: Two Questions (Steven Lo Vullo)
   6. translation (Sidney Martin)
   7. literal translation of John 1:3 (Sidney Martin)
   8. literal translation of John 1:3 (Sidney Martin)


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Message: 1
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:25:32 -0400
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Tense of EXESTH Mk. 3:21
To: mark lama <markosl80 at yahoo.com>
Cc: B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <p05210601bac73644267e@[158.253.232.123]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 8:58 AM -0700 4/19/03, mark lama wrote:
>Dear All, The text of Mark 3:21 reads as follows: KAI AKOUSANTES hOI PAR'
>AUTOU EXHLTHON KRATHSAI AUTON: ELEGON GAR hOTI "EXESTH." My understanding
>is that Jesus' family is concerned with his present mental status (see the
>previous verse for context). Why then is EXESTH aorist, as if it meant "He
>was (not is) out of his mind." ? Or is EXISTANAI active, not stative here,
>thus, "He has gone out of his mind," as we would say in English, "He has
>flipped."?  A relevant example that occurs to me is 2 Cor. 5:13: EITE
>EXESTHMEN, QEWi, EITE SWFRONOUMEN, hUMIN. Here the aorist EXESTHMEN is
>contrasted with the present SWFRONOUMEN, both of which seem to be
>referring to the subject's present mental state. I would, on the strength
>of this example, be tempted to treat this and the occurrence in Mark 3 as
>virtual presents, at least in semantic force. This seems, however,
>dangerously unwarranted by what I know of Greek syntax. Could EXESTHN have
>idiomatically acquired the force of a present,
> or is there another better way to treat it? CARIS KAI EIRHNH, Mark

I'd say that the aorist EXESTH here has the force of a perfect
middle--increasingly in Hellenistic Greek the aorist is replacing the
perfect; I think your suggested version, "He's flipped" is quite
appropriate here--or even, "he's lost his mind." But it is NOT active so
much as intransitive or middle in force.
--

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/

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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 18:15:45 +0000
From: "Sidney Martin" <martinsidney at hotmail.com>
Subject: [B-Greek] translation John 1:3
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <Law15-F36MWuLn5U9T300001be5 at hotmail.com>
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 14:45:45 -0400
From: <bertdehaan at gosympatico.ca>
Subject: [B-Greek] Two Questions
To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:

<20030419184545.HIIL4232.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.136]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859_1

Hi everyone;
I am assuming that it is okay to ask two unrelated questions in one post. If
not please let me know and it won't happen again.

1) The first question is about the number of soldiers present at Jesus'
arrest.
In John 18:3 it is mentioned that Judas took the Cohort (THN SPEIRAN). I
gathered that SPEIRA is a body of men at arms, a cohort, a tenth part of a
legion. I looked up legion, and found that it was, depending on the time
period, a band of soldiers numbering 3000-6000. Considering that it is
speaking about a official detachment of soldiers and not about a band of
renegades it would make sense to me that it consists of a standard number of
men. In verse 12 the commander of this band is called hO CILIARCOS, a ruler
of thousand. Is it possible that there were actually several hundred men
involved or is SPEIRA more of a generic name for -a group of soldiers, and
CILIARCOS a general term like -officer?

2) In Luke 23:43 Jesus said to one of the criminals on the cross; AMHN SOI
LEGW, SHMERON MET ENOU ESHi EN TWi PARADEISWi.  One commentator, who
believes that after death our souls sleep until Jesus' second coming, wrote
that this passage is to be translated as; -Truly I am telling you today, you
will be with me in Paradise-.
I don't know why Jesus would specify that he is talking today unless he is
contrasting it with something he had said previously. Does grammar rule out
one way or the other or are both ways grammatically possible? Thank you.

Bert de Haan


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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 12:27:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kevin Woodruff <cierpke at prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Two Questions
To: bertdehaan at gosympatico.ca,  Biblical Greek List
        <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <20030419192738.9172.qmail at web80215.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Bert:

According to Schurer, only one cohort was in Jerusalem
under a tribune (chiliarch. It is my supposition that
this band was somewhat less than the whole Roman
contingent stationed in Jerusalem. BDAG says it was
normally 600 men, but that the number varied and the
give the citation from Josephus' Jewish War 3:67.

As far as your second question, the word order would
suggest that SHMERON goes with what follows as in Lk
4:21; 19:9; Acts 4:9; 13:33. I think that is a case of
letting theology driving interpretation

Kevin
--- bertdehaan at gosympatico.ca wrote:
> Hi everyone;
> I am assuming that it is okay to ask two unrelated
> questions in one post. If not please let me know and
> it won't happen again.
>
> 1) The first question is about the number of
> soldiers present at Jesus' arrest.
> In John 18:3 it is mentioned that Judas took the
> Cohort (THN SPEIRAN). I gathered that SPEIRA is a
> body of men at arms, a cohort, a tenth part of a
> legion. I looked up legion, and found that it was,
> depending on the time period, a band of soldiers
> numbering 3000-6000. Considering that it is speaking
> about a official detachment of soldiers and not
> about a band of renegades it would make sense to me
> that it consists of a standard number of men. In
> verse 12 the commander of this band is called hO
> CILIARCOS, a ruler of thousand. Is it possible that
> there were actually several hundred men involved or
> is SPEIRA more of a generic name for -a group of
> soldiers, and CILIARCOS a general term like
> -officer?
>
> 2) In Luke 23:43 Jesus said to one of the criminals
> on the cross; AMHN SOI LEGW, SHMERON MET ENOU ESHi
> EN TWi PARADEISWi.  One commentator, who believes
> that after death our souls sleep until Jesus' second
> coming, wrote that this passage is to be translated
> as; -Truly I am telling you today, you will be with
> me in Paradise-.
> I don't know why Jesus would specify that he is
> talking today unless he is contrasting it with
> something he had said previously. Does grammar rule
> out one way or the other or are both ways
> grammatically possible? Thank you.
>
> Bert de Haan
>
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek


=====
Prof. Kevin W. Woodruff, M. Div., M. S. I. S.
Library Director/Reference Librarian, Professor of New Testament and Greek
Cierpke Memorial Library
Tennessee Temple University/Temple Baptist Seminary, 1815 Union Ave.
Chattanooga, Tennessee 37404, United States of America
423/493-4252 (office) 423/698-9447 (home) 423/493-4497 (FAX)
Cierpke at prodigy.net . http://pages.prodigy.net/cierpke/woodruff.htm

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 21:13:43 -0500
From: Steven Lo Vullo <slovullo at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Two Questions
To: Kevin Woodruff <cierpke at prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <CCC5E4F0-72D5-11D7-A281-000A959DEE0E at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

On Saturday, April 19, 2003, at 02:27 PM, Kevin Woodruff wrote:

> As far as your second question, the word order would
> suggest that SHMERON goes with what follows as in Lk
> 4:21; 19:9; Acts 4:9; 13:33. I think that is a case of
> letting theology driving interpretation

I agree with Kevin, but rather than rehash the whole discussion, I
would point you to the lengthy exchanges that took place in, I think,
September-October of 2002. You can get them in the archives.
============

Steven R. Lo Vullo
Madison, WI


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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 10:50:54 +0000
From: "Sidney Martin" <martinsidney at hotmail.com>
Subject: [B-Greek] translation
To: B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <Law15-F37LpTVzF25mI00003ae1 at hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 10:57:43 +0000
From: "Sidney Martin" <martinsidney at hotmail.com>
Subject: [B-Greek] literal translation of John 1:3
To: B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <Law15-F646AATiyhGvD00003aba at hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 11:01:17 +0000
From: "Sidney Martin" <martinsidney at hotmail.com>
Subject: [B-Greek] literal translation of John 1:3
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <Law15-F79487jPhUpM500003b11 at hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


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