[B-Greek] Follow up to Mitch's AGAPAW and FILEW

Brent Hudson brent at riveroflifembchurch.com
Mon Aug 18 14:22:37 EDT 2003


First, If a distinction is to be made (and I have said several times I don't there can be in John 21), I would make it in the opposite direction as yourself.  I would see FILEW as necessarily including AGAPAW.  How can one have warm feelings of friendship an emotional bond (FILEW) if they have not decided to be favourably oriented toward that person (AGAPAW)?  God the Father loving (FILEW in John 16:27) his children must assume that AGAPAW is equally true.  

Second, I don't see the ideas of 'sacrifice' or "best interest for the person" with AGAP- in the LXX (at least twice being opposite Gen 33.3; & 2Sam 13.1,4,15).  Also, while FILEW is rare in the LXX, it also translates the Hebrew AHB on several occasions and FILIA is used many times for the Heb noun aheb.  One interesting case of the former is Gen 37.4 where FILEW is used of Jacob's love for Joseph -- one verse earlier (v.3), AGAPAW is used for the same purpose.  It doesn't seem likely that the translator saw any significant difference between these Greek terms (particularly since the same Hebrew term underlies both).  As for 'sacrifice', I would see Rom 5.7,8 as indicating that sacrifice is not a standard part of AGAPH -- which is why God's AGAPH is remarkable (v.8).

At any rate, it seems clear to me that any rigid distinction between AGAP- and FIL- is fraught with difficulties in the light of NT itself (cf., 1Cor 16.22!).

Regards,

Brent Hudson


*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

On 8/17/2003 at 11:32 PM Bryant J. Williams III wrote:

>Dear Brent,
>
>I like the concept you give for the differences between essentially two
>similar
>meaning words. I would like to add that what actually may be happening
>between
>AGAPAW and FILEW is range of meaning the one covers versus the other. It
>appears
>that FILEW has the idea of "regard with affection with care, concern,
>hospitality, etc."It is the word that is most frequently used by itself
>and in
>compound words, i.e., FILOSOPHIA, FILOXENIA, etc., in classical Greek.
>While
>AGAPAW seems to be rather late in arriving on the scene in classical Greek
>(from
>Homer onward). It does not have any specific uses different from FILEW.
>However,
>the LXX uses AGAPAW to translate the Hebrew  " 'aheb" (Lev. 19:18; Deut.
>6:5)and
>adds the additional connotation of "divine or the love of God and the life
>based
>upon it to the point of death for the best interest of the one loved." So,
>in
>this sense, there is a distinction being carried out in the NT. FILEW
>covers a
>range of meaning to fondness, care, concern, etc. not necessarily to the
>point
>of death or the best interest for the other person, but AGAPAW adds the
>element
>of death, sacrifice, best interest for the person and includes the idea of
>keeping contractual obligations even when the other person violate the
>contract
>(this concept is added by its use in the LXX and continues into the NT).
>
>Thus, John 21 is not really making the distinction of this (FILEW)versus
>that(AGAPAW), but this (AGAPAW) in addition to that (FILEW).
>
>En Xpistw,
>
>Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Brent Hudson" <brent at riveroflifembchurch.com>
>To: "Dmitriy Reznik" <reznik1 at juno.com>; "Greek Email List"
><b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 9:44 PM
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Follow up to Mitch's AGAPAW and FILEW
>
>
>On 8/17/2003 at 9:24 PM Dmitriy Reznik wrote:
>
>>By this I argue against a wide spread interpretation that states that
>>Peter could not answer simply, Yes, I love (AGAPW) You, so he says, I
>>(just) FILW You, thus in fact answering NO, not YES. Such an
>>interpretation implies that AGAPH is a special kind of unselfish love
>>that comes only from G-d. But because this is not how the word is used,
>>people would not understand such an idea if John had it in mind.
>
>Ah, I see.  I guess I'm coming from a different angle.  If there were a
>difference between the terms in this context, I would tend to see AGAPAW as
>being more conceptual (like one's love of peace or of one's neighbour)
>whereas
>FILEW would be the more intimate and emotive term (e.g., a 'love'
>congruent with
>the idea of a kiss (in the Mediterrean sense)).  In other words, I
>wouldn't see
>Peter's FILW SE as a diminished form of AGAPW SE, but rather an alternate
>expression that added the connotation of personal warmth and friendship.
>Nevertheless, since the words are used synonymously in various places any
>argument to this end remains highly speculative and can never be proven
>satisfactorily.
>
>Regards,
>Brent Hudson
>
>
>
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