[B-Greek] Greek Syntax from Papias

Polycarp66 at aol.com Polycarp66 at aol.com
Tue Dec 2 15:47:59 EST 2003


In a message dated 12/2/2003 3:16:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
dhoxworth at charter.net writes:
TOUS TWN PRESBUTERWN ANERINON LOGOUS, TI ANDREAS H TI 
PETROS EIPEN H TI FILIPPOS H TI QWMAS H IAKWBOS H TI 
IWANNHS H MATQAIOS H TIS hETEROS TWN TOU KURIOU MAQHTWN A 
TE ARISTIWN KAI hO PRESBUTEROS IWANNHS, TOU KURIOU 
MAQHTAI, LEGOUSIN

...I would carefully ask about the words of the 
presbyters, what Andrew or what Peter had said or what 
Philip or what Thomas or James or what John or Matthew or 
any other of the disciples of the Lord, and which Aristion 
and the presbyter John, disciples of the Lord say too.

A couple of questions:

1. Could hO PRESBUTEROS IWANNHS be rendered or understood 
as "the aforementioned John"?
2. How is hO PRESBUTEROS IWANNHS to be best understood? Is 
it "John the Elder" or "Elder John" (a sort of title) or 
"the Elder--that is John" or "The elder who I just 
metioned above--John", etc.? 
Not only is John designated as "PRESBUTEROS" -- so are Andrew, Peter, Philip, 
Thomas, James, John and Matthew in the first section.  I see no reason to 
understand it differently with regard to one of the second group (of two), viz. a 
second John.  It would seem, however, that the second group of two are in 
addition to the first.  Why would PRESBUTEROS take on a meaning nowhere else 
attested?  When reference is made to one previously mentioned we see

* hOUTOS * hO IHSOUS hO ANALHMFQEIS AF' hUMWN . . . [Acts 1.11]

It should be noted that Eusebius (who quotes this from Papias) apparently 
failed to understand Papias.  He states "[Papias] by no means declares that he 
was himself a hearer and eye-witness of the apostles" and states further "he 
shows by the words which he uses that he received the doctrines of faith from 
those who were their [scil. the apostles'] friends.  This is immediately after 
calling him "a hearer of John."  Was Papias a hearer of John or was he not?

gfsomsel



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