[B-Greek] Greek Syntax from Papias
Stephen C. Carlson
scarlson at mindspring.com
Tue Dec 2 16:38:16 EST 2003
Doug Hoxworth <dhoxworth at charter.net> wrote:
>TOUS TWN PRESBUTERWN ANEKRINON LOGOUS, TI ANDREAS H TI
>PETROS EIPEN H TI FILIPPOS H TI QWMAS H IAKWBOS H TI
>IWANNHS H MATQAIOS H TIS hETEROS TWN TOU KURIOU MAQHTWN hA
>TE ARISTIWN KAI hO PRESBUTEROS IWANNHS, TOU KURIOU
>MAQHTAI, LEGOUSIN
>
>...I would carefully ask about the words of the
>presbyters, what Andrew or what Peter had said or what
>Philip or what Thomas or James or what John or Matthew or
>any other of the disciples of the Lord, and which Aristion
>and the presbyter John, disciples of the Lord say too.
Look's like you're using my old translation. Upon much
study since then, I am more inclined to translate this as
follows:
I would carefully examine the words of the presbyters--
what Andrew or what Peter had said or what Philip or
what Thomas or James or what John or Matthew or
any other of the disciples of the Lord--just as [I would
examine] what Aristion and the presbyter John, disciples
of the Lord, were saying.
>A couple of questions:
>
>1. Could hO PRESBUTEROS IWANNHS be rendered or understood
>as "the aforementioned John"?
No. Why would PRESBUTEROS mean "aforementioned"?
>2. How is hO PRESBUTEROS IWANNHS to be best understood? Is
>it "John the Elder" or "Elder John" (a sort of title) or
>"the Elder--that is John" or "The elder who I just
>metioned above--John", etc.?
Either one of the first two; for the last two, I would expect
something like hO PRESBUTEROS hO IWANNHS.
If you are trying to determine whether the grammar of the
passage is going to answer the age-old "one John or two"
question, you're out of luck since the grammar can support
either option. There is also a host of difficult exegetical
choices as to what other key terms mean (e.g. TI). As a
result, we're left with interpreting Papias's remarks within
its context, and the problem is compounded by the fact that
the sentence is quoted by someone (Eusebius) who often
quotes out-of-context and with an ax to grind.
My personal understanding of this much argued sentence is
that there were two disciples of Jesus named John, one who
had died by the time Papias was making his inquiries and
another who was still alive. It is a mistake to follow Eusebius
and try to equate or exclude Papias's PRESBUTEROI with the
category of the 12 Apostles. There may be some overlap,
but it is not exact.
Stephen Carlson
--
Stephen C. Carlson,
mailto:scarlson at mindspring.com
"Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35
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