[B-Greek] RE: Trench's Synonyms

Anthony Forsyth anthony at calvarybiblechurch.org.uk
Sat Feb 15 18:32:35 EST 2003


While we are onto Trench and his syn.s, what is the consensus among the
list regarding the value of his work today?  I had been told it was too
outdated to be of any use, but I found it helpful in places.

Anthony Fosyth
Calvary Bible Church, Medway. UK
anthony at calvarybiblechurch.org.uk



-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
b-greek-request at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: 15 February 2003 17:00
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: B-Greek Digest, Vol 2, Issue 15

Send B-Greek mailing list submissions to
	b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	b-greek-request at lists.ibiblio.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	b-greek-owner at lists.ibiblio.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of B-Greek digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Jo 1:37 (Wieland Willker)
   2. (slightly OT) translator(s) of GJohn for NRSV (Jeffrey B. Gibson)
   3. LXX reading notes (bgreek at ntresources.com)
   4. john 1:14 (Sidney Martin)
   5. RE: Jo 1:37 (Iver Larsen)
   6. RE: Jo 1:37 (Wieland Willker)
   7. Trench Synonyms (bertdehaan at gosympatico.ca)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 18:55:04 +0100
From: "Wieland Willker" <willker at chemie.uni-bremen.de>
Subject: [B-Greek] Jo 1:37
To: "B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <000001c2d452$3445ed80$b9076686 at wieland>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

John 1:37
KAI HKOUSAN OI DUO MAQHTAI ***AUTOU*** LALOUNTOS KAI HKOLOUQHSAN TW
IHSOU.

Here we have a GcP = Genitivus cum Participio
"and the two disciples heard him speaking"


Now P66, P75 et al read:
KAI HKOUSAN OI DUO ***AUTOU*** MAQHTAI LALOUNTOS KAI HKOLOUQHSAN TW
IHSOU.

Is this grammatically correct? Here the AUTOU refers back to John, I
presume: his = John's disciples.

Best wishes
    Wieland
      <><
------------------------
Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
mailto:willker at chemie.uni-bremen.de
http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 13:03:05 -0600
From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000 at attbi.com>
Subject: [B-Greek] (slightly OT) translator(s) of GJohn for NRSV
To: Biblical Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <3E4D3D69.B352CB36 at attbi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Does anyone know who the translator/translators  was/were for the NRSV
version of GJohn?

Yours,

Jeffrey Gibson

--

Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
Chicago, IL 60626

jgibson000 at attbi.com

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:14:59 -0500
From: bgreek at ntresources.com
Subject: [B-Greek] LXX reading notes
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20030214201714.16325.qmail at mailshell.com>
Content-Type: text/plain

For those who have expressed interest in reading LXX text (& even for
those
who haven't!), I've posted some fairly detailed reading guides (has
vocab,
parsing, grammar, syntax notes) for the following passages:

Gen. 1:1-13; Deut. 4:1-14, 25-40

You can access them at
<http://faculty.bbc.edu/rdecker/classes/nt887.htm>

These are for an MDiv class that I'm teaching. I may post other sections
later in the semester.

(Thanks to Albert Pietersma who provided help on several sections that I
found perplexing.)

====================================================
Rodney J. Decker, Th.D., Associate Prof/NT
Baptist Bible Seminary, Clarks Summit, PA,USA
NTResources.com  PURL: purl.oclc.org/NT_Resources/
Email: <rdecker> at <NTResources.com>
====================================================

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 02:12:58 +0000
From: "Sidney Martin" <martinsidney at hotmail.com>
Subject: [B-Greek] john 1:14
To: B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <F120dSKsmG41t4gjRlu0000580d at hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 09:25:20 +0300
From: "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org>
Subject: RE: [B-Greek] Jo 1:37
To: "Wieland Willker" <willker at chemie.uni-bremen.de>,	"B-Greek"
	<b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <NEBBIMKCNLGACONLDPPNIEJEDGAA.iver_larsen at sil.org>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

> John 1:37
> KAI HKOUSAN OI DUO MAQHTAI ***AUTOU*** LALOUNTOS KAI HKOLOUQHSAN TW
> IHSOU.
>
> Here we have a GcP = Genitivus cum Participio
> "and the two disciples heard him speaking"
>
>
> Now P66, P75 et al read:
> KAI HKOUSAN OI DUO ***AUTOU*** MAQHTAI LALOUNTOS KAI HKOLOUQHSAN TW
> IHSOU.
>
> Is this grammatically correct? Here the AUTOU refers back to John, I
> presume: his = John's disciples.

I suppose a case could be made for it to be grammatically correct if we
take
AUTOU with MAQHTAI and then there is no explicit subject for LALOUNTOS.
At
least those who copied the MSS appear to have thought so.
But it is so unusual, and I would say abnormal, that it cannot possible
be
the correct reading. I think it is more likely that the copyists
misunderstood OI DUO MAQHTAI AUTOU as if the AUTOU belonged to MAQHTAI
as it
does in 1:35 where we read EK TWN MAQHTWN AUTOU. Having thus
misunderstood
it, they may have felt that AUTOU should come first, although I cannot
see
why. It is a good example of some of the careless mistakes we find in
these
papyrus MSS. Do you have more examples like this?

There are lots of examples of	a genitive phrase/clause with a
participle as
the complement of AKOUW in the NT, and they all include a subject for
the
participle as far as I could see. In case anyone is interested in
looking at
this construction I can give some references: Mrk 19:58, John 7:32, Acts
2:11, 6:11,14, 8:30, 10:46, 14:9, 15:12, 22:7, Rev 6:5, 8:13, 14:13,
16:5,7.
There is in interesting one with accusative in Acts 9:4.

Iver Larsen


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 10:02:43 +0100
From: "Wieland Willker" <willker at chemie.uni-bremen.de>
Subject: [B-Greek] RE: Jo 1:37
To: "B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <000001c2d4d1$00457300$5d076686 at wieland>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

> > John 1:37
> > KAI HKOUSAN OI DUO MAQHTAI ***AUTOU*** LALOUNTOS
> > KAI HKOLOUQHSAN TW IHSOU.

> > Now P66, P75 et al read:
> > KAI HKOUSAN OI DUO ***AUTOU*** MAQHTAI LALOUNTOS
> > KAI HKOLOUQHSAN TW IHSOU.

Iver Larsen wrote:
> Having thus misunderstood it, they may have felt that AUTOU
> should come first, although I cannot see why.

Thanks for your comments!
This is exactly the problem I have. Why should anybody change the txt
reading or the Byz reading into the awkward P66 et al. reading? The
support is very strong: P66, P75, C*, L, Wsup, Psi, 083, 33, 579, pc, WH
have it in their margin! Why have so many good witnesses such a peculiar
text?
One could argue that this is certainly the harder reading and that it
has been changed in various ways.

Best wishes
    Wieland
      <><
------------------------
Wieland Willker, Bremen, Germany
mailto:willker at chemie.uni-bremen.de
http://www.uni-bremen.de/~wie/



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 9:51:43 -0500
From: <bertdehaan at gosympatico.ca>
Subject: [B-Greek] Trench Synonyms
To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
	
<20030215145143.TZHR13046.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.136]>
	
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859_1

I used someone's "Synonyms of the New Testament" by Trench. I checked on
the inter-net if I could find a used copy and was surprised to find two
books with this title, one by Robert Trench, the other by Richard
Trench.Who is who, or which is which? Is this a good book to get or are
other, better books available. Thank you.
Bert de Haan.


------------------------------

_______________________________________________
B-Greek mailing list
B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

End of B-Greek Digest, Vol 2, Issue 15
**************************************




More information about the B-Greek mailing list