[B-Greek] RE: English to Greek
Larry Baker
lbaker at accs.edu
Fri May 2 13:28:08 EDT 2003
Along with Louw & Nida's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament
Based on Semantic Domains, other sources for English-to-Greek word-lists
are the "English Index" in Kohlenberger III, Goodrick, and Swanson's The
Greek English Concordance to the New Testament with the NIV, Kittel's
multi-volume Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, as well as its
one-volume abridged edition by G. W. Bromiley, and Colin Brown, Colin's
New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology. George Wigram's
The Englishman's Greek Concordance of the New Testament and the various
editions of Strong's Concordance also have an English index based upon
the KJV translation. Although a bit dated, one can also find an English
listing for Greek words in Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament
Words and Ethelbert W. Bullinger's A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to
the English and Greek New Testament. (If one consults these latter
reference works, it is nice to verify their comments with a more recent
reference work.)
Larry Baker, prof. of biblical languages
The American Christian College and Seminary
OKC, OK
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Today's Topics:
1. RE: Chalcedon Greek query (bgreek at ntresources.com)
2. Romanized Greek NT? (Ramin Javedan)
3. English to Greek (Jeffrey B. Gibson)
4. Re: English to Greek (Jonathan Robie)
5. Re: English to Greek (Jeffrey B. Gibson)
6. EIDOS in 1 Thessalonians 5:22 (Jon Boyd)
7. RE: English to Greek (Iver Larsen)
8. RE: EIDOS in 1 Thessalonians 5:22 (Iver Larsen)
9. National Biblical Greek Exam (Free Trial) (John David Schwandt)
10. RE: English to Greek, Reverse Dictionary (Alexander Hopkins)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 13:23:09 -0400
From: bgreek at ntresources.com
Subject: RE: [B-Greek] Chalcedon Greek query
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20030501172640.7591.qmail at mailshell.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Thanks for the confirmation--and thanks to Carlton for making the
(obvious)
suggestion. Don't know why I hadn't considered that it might be the
first
letter rather than the third that was the misprint.
====================================================
Rodney J. Decker, Th.D., Associate Prof/NT
Baptist Bible Seminary, Clarks Summit, PA,USA
NTResources.com PURL: purl.oclc.org/NT_Resources/
Email: <rdecker> at <NTResources.com>
====================================================
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Penner
> [mailto:pennerkm.at.mcmaster.ca at bgreek.at.ntresources.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 10:01 AM
> To: bgreek at ntresources.com; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: RE: [B-Greek] Chalcedon Greek query
>
>
> Carlton is right; TLG has PARADEDWKE.
>
> Ken Penner, M.C.S. (Biblical Languages, Greek Focus), M.A.
> (Hebrew Poetry) Ph.D. (cand.), McMaster University
> pennerkm at mcmaster.ca Flash! Pro:
> http://socserv.socsci.mcmaster.ca/westerholm/fla> sh or
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flash_pro/join or
>
>
http://sensoft.nav.to
> In the Greek text of the Creed of Chalcedon, Shedd gives the
> following word
> as the next to the last word of the creed: KARADEDWKE (*Creeds of
> Christendom,* 2:63).
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 17:01:41 -0400
From: "Ramin Javedan" <rjavedan at cox.net>
Subject: [B-Greek] Romanized Greek NT?
To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
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Dear all,
Is there a New Testament available on the internet which has all the
Greek words already romanized, or which provides romanized words with a
click or two?
Thanks,
Ramin Javedan
(Chinese-English interpreter)From pballard at ozemail.com.au Thu May 1
21:06:14 2003
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(rjavedan at cox.net)
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Romanized Greek NT?
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Ramin Javedan wrote:
>Is there a New Testament available on the internet which has all the
>Greek words already romanized, or which provides romanized words with
>a click or two?
I have a site which does this but, because I use a 3rd party's
parsing, you must first email me before I can give you full access:
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~pballard/gnt/
If I didn't have the parsing, I could probably put it on the web with
no restrictions. Would that be of interest to you (or anyone else)?
Regards,
Peter Ballard
Adelaide, AUSTRALIA
pballard at ozemail.com.au
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~pballard/
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 20:26:53 -0500
From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000 at attbi.com>
Subject: [B-Greek] English to Greek
To: Biblical Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <3EB1C95D.E3F8C11D at attbi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Some of my students have asked me a question I couldn't answer: Is
there a reverse NT Greek Lexicon or an online resource (excluding
Perseus) that moves from English words to their NT greek "equivalents"?
Wenham has this in the back of his textbook, but is there anything else?
Yours,
Jeffrey Gibson
--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
Chicago, IL 60626
jgibson000 at attbi.com
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 22:49:22 -0400
From: Jonathan Robie <jonathan.robie at datadirect-technologies.com>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] English to Greek
To: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000 at attbi.com>, Biblical Greek
<b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030501224632.01c8d120 at pop.mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
At 08:26 PM 5/1/2003 -0500, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
>Some of my students have asked me a question I couldn't answer: Is
>there a reverse NT Greek Lexicon or an online resource (excluding
>Perseus) that moves from English words to their NT greek "equivalents"?
Perseus has a tool that allows you to look up a Greek word based on the
English words found in its definition in Liddel-Scott-Jones:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/enggreek
Hope this helps,
Jonathan
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 22:43:53 -0500
From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000 at attbi.com>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] English to Greek
To: Jonathan Robie <jonathan.robie at datadirect-technologies.com>
Cc: Biblical Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <3EB1E979.994E363A at attbi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Jonathan Robie wrote:
> At 08:26 PM 5/1/2003 -0500, Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
> >Some of my students have asked me a question I couldn't answer: Is
> >there a reverse NT Greek Lexicon or an online resource (excluding
> >Perseus) that moves from English words to their NT greek
"equivalents"?
>
> Perseus has a tool that allows you to look up a Greek word based on
the
> English words found in its definition in Liddel-Scott-Jones:
>
> http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/enggreek
>
Yes, as I indicated in my message, I was aware that Perseus does this.
But
the problem with Perseus is that it doesn't specify which of the (often
very
many) Greek words it gives are those used by NT writers and in NT
writings.
So it is not the kind of tool my students were asking after. Plus they'd
prefer a book.
So the search goes on ...
Yours,
Jeffrey
--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
Chicago, IL 60626
jgibson000 at attbi.com
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 22:57:09 -0500
From: "Jon Boyd" <boyd at huxcomm.net>
Subject: [B-Greek] EIDOS in 1 Thessalonians 5:22
To: "'B-Greek'" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <000001c3105e$ebcae9e0$8d7fb1cf at johnxh5l6v10a8>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dear B-Greekers,
I was just reading a book that made a big point of abstaining from all
"appearance of evil" as the KVJ translates 1 Thess. 5:22.
1 Thess. 5:21-22
PANTA DE DOKIMAZETE, TO KALON KATECETE, APO PANTOS EIDOUS PONHROU
APECESQE.
Looking at BDAG I see they have three categories for EIDOS: 1) the shape
and
structure of someth. as it appears to someone, 2) a variety of someth.,
3)
the act of looking/seeing.
BDAG lists several passages to support the sense "variety of something,"
including Josephus, Ant. 10:37, which speaks of PAN EIDOS PONHRIAS.
My Bibleworks copy of Louw and Nida lists two senses of EIDOS: 1) form
58.14
and 2) sight 24.1.
My questions: Is the second sense in BDAG legitimate, and if so why
isn't it
included in Louw and Nida? Does anyone have any thoughts on the KJV's
translation "appearance of evil"? Every other modern version I've seen
goes
with "form" or "kind" of evil.
Thanks,
Jonathan Boyd
Huxley, Iowa
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 08:17:36 +0300
From: "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org>
Subject: RE: [B-Greek] English to Greek
To: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000 at attbi.com>
Cc: Biblical Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <NEBBIMKCNLGACONLDPPNAEOEDIAA.iver_larsen at sil.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> Yes, as I indicated in my message, I was aware that Perseus does this.
But
> the problem with Perseus is that it doesn't specify which of the
> (often very
> many) Greek words it gives are those used by NT writers and in NT
> writings.
> So it is not the kind of tool my students were asking after. Plus
they'd
> prefer a book.
>
> So the search goes on ...
Are you aware of volume 2 of the Louw and Nida Greek-English Lexicon?
Volume
2 has both a
Greek and English index and it is restricted to the NT. One of the
advantages for students is that for each English word in the index they
get
one or more semantic domain numbers and when they look up those numbers
in
volume 1, they can easily compare several words in the same semantic
range.
Some of the English words have separate entries, e.g. "see (visit)" ,
"see/ing (sensory), "see to (take care of)".
Iver Larsen
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 08:17:55 +0300
From: "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org>
Subject: RE: [B-Greek] EIDOS in 1 Thessalonians 5:22
To: "Jon Boyd" <boyd at huxcomm.net>, "'B-Greek'"
<b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <NEBBIMKCNLGACONLDPPNCEOEDIAA.iver_larsen at sil.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> I was just reading a book that made a big point of abstaining from all
> "appearance of evil" as the KVJ translates 1 Thess. 5:22.
>
> 1 Thess. 5:21-22
> PANTA DE DOKIMAZETE, TO KALON KATECETE, APO PANTOS EIDOUS PONHROU
> APECESQE.
>
> Looking at BDAG I see they have three categories for EIDOS: 1)
> the shape and
> structure of someth. as it appears to someone, 2) a variety of
someth., 3)
> the act of looking/seeing.
>
> BDAG lists several passages to support the sense "variety of
something,"
> including Josephus, Ant. 10:37, which speaks of PAN EIDOS PONHRIAS.
This must be the latest edition of BAG. My BAGD has 1) form, outward
appearance, 2) kind, 3) active seeing/sight.
The gloss "a variety of something" is inaccurate and misleading, IMO.
The
variety aspect seems to come from PAS in PANTOS EIDOUS or from aspects
of
the English word "kind" that are not included in EIDOS. If so, it came
about
when Danker was redefining the English word "kind" using more words
without
distinguishing carefully the various senses of "kind" in English.
>
> My Bibleworks copy of Louw and Nida lists two senses of EIDOS: 1)
> form 58.14 and 2) sight 24.1.
Yes, but their "form" in 58.14 include "appearance". I would translate
"every form of evil" which as you say is a common translation. In the
context of "all, every" I don't see any difference between "every kind
of"
and "every form of", but that does not mean that "kind" and "form" in
general are synonymous, and "form" is a better gloss for EIDOS than
"kind".
So, what I am saying is that 2) is dubious for the NT, but I think it is
primarily a question of English glosses and English semantics.
>
> My questions: Is the second sense in BDAG legitimate, and if so
> why isn't it included in Louw and Nida?
I would say, no, it is not legitimate, or at least misleading.
> Does anyone have any thoughts on the KJV's translation "appearance of
evil"?
I suppose we are dealing with a change in the English language as so
often
happens when you compare the old English of the KJV with modern English.
My
Webster's give 9 senses of "appearance" of which only a few would be
appropriate glosses for EIDOS today, but more may have been appropriate
400
years ago. When you say "appearance of evil", my guess is that many
people
would think of sense 2b: "semblance", and this sense is not part of
EIDOS,
and therefore the KJ rendering does not accurately communicate the Greek
text in modern English.
Iver Larsen
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 22:52:23 -0700
From: John David Schwandt <jschwandt at nsa.edu>
Subject: [B-Greek] National Biblical Greek Exam (Free Trial)
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <3EB20797.50903 at nsa.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Greetings Everyone,
With the permission of the B-Greek management, I would like to invite
you to try the National Biblical Greek Exam at no cost. (
www.biblicalgreek.org/exam ) This online exam has been in development
for quite some time and I would greatly appreciate your professional
opinions or any feedback you may have about it. Please email me
off-list for a free promotional code and specific instructions.
The exam is offered completely online. Normally someone in addition to
the examinee must register as a proctor, but for the free evaluation you
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national ranking, and specific scores in nine grammatical categories.
Such detailed analysis is not only designed to benefit the examinee but
it should provide the instructor with an accurate assessment of the
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If you teach Greek, I would also be delighted to send you free
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I am looking forward to getting your thoughts on the exam so that it may
be improved to be more effective and helpful for all who are
interested. Thank you for your work in the promotion of Greek learning.
ERRWSQE
John Schwandt
Fellow of Classical Languages, New St. Andrews College
Director of the National Biblical Greek Exam
www.BiblicalGreek.org/exam
P.S. Email me at JDS at BiblicalGreek.org for the free promotional code or
to ask any questions. You can also call 1-800-445-2456
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 00:03:53 +1000
From: "Alexander Hopkins" <alexali at surf.net.au>
Subject: [B-Greek] RE: English to Greek, Reverse Dictionary
To: "BGreek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <000901c310b3$bcbbcac0$cda510cb at alexfvvkiehm18>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Jeffrey Gibson asked,
>Is there a reverse NT Greek Lexicon or an online resource (excluding
Perseus) that moves from English words to their NT greek "equivalents"?
Iver Larsen indicated the relevance of Louw and Nida,
>Are you aware of volume 2 of the Louw and Nida Greek-English Lexicon?
Volume 2 has both a Greek and English index and it is restricted to the
NT. One of the advantages for students is that for each English word in
the index they get one or more semantic domain numbers and when they
look up those numbers in volume 1, they can easily compare several words
in the same semantic range. Some of the English words have separate
entries, e.g. "see (visit)" , "see/ing (sensory), "see to (take care
of)".
Jeffrey's question brought to mind the book, English-Greek Dictionary,
subtitled, A Vocabulary of the Attic Language, by S.C.Woodhouse, first
published in 1910, but the subtitle is enough to indicate that it
doesn't meet directly the students' need to find 'equivalents' in the
Greek of the NT.
Louw and Nida is not a resource I have on my shelves, or even on my
computer, so I write the following open to correction. As Iver
indicates, it is relevant to the needs of Jeffrey's students; but
perhaps they ought to be advised to use it with one qualification. As
it restricts itself to NT vocabulary and NT usage, it shouldn't be
forgotten in using it that it doesn't reflect wider possibilities, as
reflected in the papyri, for example, or literary texts. In other
words, I think it's just worth bearing in mind that it deals with a
closed vocabulary set, and that LN shouldn't be taken as affording a
full understanding of a particular word.
Jeffrey's speaking of a reverse dictionary brings one other thought to
mind (on a separate tangent from Jeffrey's intent), as I sometimes think
of 'reverse dictionaries' as ones which are ordered according to the
endings of words. I've sometimes thought it would be a worthwhile
resource to have - a book that indicates the possibilities of various
endings, e.g. -W^ (my attempt to represent final omega with circumflex)
1) 1st sg, present indicative active of contract verbs, 2) 1st sg,
future indicative active of verbs where contraction has taken place in
the future stem, e.g. yod suffix verbs such as YALW at Romans 15:9, 3)
2nd sg, present imperative middle/passive of AW contracts, e.g. NIKW at
Romans 12:21, 4) gen. sg. of certain nouns, etc, etc. Does such a
resource exist?
Regards,
Alex Hopkins
Melbourne, Australia
------------------------------
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