[B-Greek] Correct notions about "deponent" verbs

Dr. Don Wilkins drdwilkins at sbcglobal.net
Wed Nov 19 17:07:52 EST 2003


Carl's comments on this subject are excellent as always. I would like to 
know more of his thoughts on the proto-Indo-European parent language and 
the reflexive, because I think of Sanskrit (which I know very little 
about other than paradigms in my Sanskrit grammar) and would like to 
know how a reflexive-to-passive transition is reflected there. Also, I 
assume it has already been pointed out that "deponent" is a mistaken 
term to begin with, since the verbs in question never had an active form.
I would also like to hear more about latent feelings in the minds of 
native speakers. It is certainly true that some languages accommodate 
reflexive or other speaker-interest ideas better than others; indeed, 
some languages, like Sanskrit and Hebrew, provide special places for 
causative and intensive nuances that would probably seem like so much 
extra baggage for English speakers. However, could it be going a little 
to far to say that English does not do so well at such nuances? To 
compare it with modern languages, for instance, the French "se laver" or 
the German "es versteht sich" are encumbered with reflexive pronouns, 
are they not? English reflexives themselves are not quite so efficiently 
put together, but they function the same way for reflexive ideas, and I 
would even go so far as to suggest that the English paraphrase for the 
passive is probably more logical than using a paraphrastic reflexive for 
the same purpose. [BTW, some of this is a bit far afield from Greek, so 
Carl, if you would like to drop me a brief enote off-list, that's fine.]
But in regard to the middle voice and so-called deponents, there were 
many verbal concepts which by the nature of the action or state of being 
involve the subject more than other concepts, and it must have seemed 
natural to the Greek native speaker to use the middle. In English, we 
are content to let the lexical meaning of the word carry all or most of 
the weight, and when something more direct or forceful is required, we 
simply resort to pronominal or adverbial modifiers. However, if one 
really would like to get an idea of how grammatical limitations can 
affect expression and translation, I would suggest comparing Greek with 
Hebrew, and to that end, the LXX offers an excellent means of 
comparison. The LXX translators did a remarkably good job overall, but 
when translational problems do occur, they are enlightening.

Don Wilkins
head translator, The Lockman Foundation

On Wednesday, November 19, 2003, at 10:54 AM, Eric Weiss wrote:

> In this post:
>
> http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/test-archives/html4/1997-01/16845.html
>
> Carl Conrad discussed "deponent" verbs:
>
> At 11:15 PM -0600 1/17/97, Donald W Price wrote:
>>> In re to Henry's problem in distinguishing between the middle
>>> and the passive, Winbery writes: "Both BAGD and LSJ give this
>>> verb as deponent. In the present tense there is no way to
>>> distinguish middle or passive."
>>> This brings up another issue! I know that grammars tell us that
>>> a "deponent verbs" are those that have middle/passive endings,
>>> but are active in meaning. Right? However, the more I study this
>>> issue, I find myself coming to the conclusion that
>>> these "deponent" verbs never really lost that middle idea at
>>> all. I'm referring to the "for oneself" idea. How about some
>>> help on this matter?
>
>> You "find yourself" --coming to the conclusion that ...?
>> hHURHKAS!
>>
>> Is it conceivable that I have found a convert to a view that I
>> have expressed here several times? I abhor the term "deponent"
>> precisely because it implies a quirky notion that the English
>> language (or whatever language the grammarian chances to speak as
>> a native tongue) quite naturally and rightly uses an active verb
>> to express, let's say, the notion of RECEIVING.
>>
>> "I receive a gift from my friend." Greek however says DWRON PARA
>> TOU FILOU DECOMAI. "Aha!" we say, "Greek (in this instance)
>> has "misplaced" the voice of the verb which God intended to be in
>> the active voice. Let's mark that verb 'deponent' and thereby
>> indicate that the Greeks' heads were not screwed on right when
>> they came to using this verb."
>>
>> In fact, however, it appears that the proto-Indo-European parent
>> language had fundamentally two voices, an active and a reflexive
>> which could also be made to express a passive idea. English is
>> exceedingly poor ("challenged"?) in genuine reflexives such
>> as, "give one's self a break," while the European languages are
>> contrastingly rich--Fr. SE LAVER, It. ARRIVEDERCI, Ger. ES
>> VERSTEHT SICH (von selbst, freilich)--which last phrase nicely
>> illusrates how the reflexive is used as a passive: obviously
>> there isn't any "IT" which "understands itself" but rather "it is
>> understood."
>>
>> So in fact what our grammar books have accustomed us to
>> call "deponent" verbs are indeed native to Greek (and other IE
>> languages); whenever an action is conceived is involving self-
>> interest or self-projection, the verb tends to go into the middle
>> voice (I'd prefer calling it the "reflexive" voice). Sometimes,
>> and not infrequently in Greek, a verb that is active in the
>> present becomes "deponent" or "reflexive" in the future:
>> AKOUW/AKOUSOMAI; LAMBANW/LHPSOMAI; MANQANV/MAQHSOMAI; etc.
>>
>> I think this ultimately depends upon the genius--the native
>> feeling latent within the speakers of each language regarding
>> self-involvement in actions. English speakers, at least by
>> contrast with French speakers and German speakers, don't seem
>> very self-conscious about actions they perform, and I think
>> that's why there are so few reflexive verbs in English,
>> relatively speaking. But once we start reflecting upon things,
>> we "find ourselves" wondering about differences between Greek and
>> English, among other things.
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University
>> One Brookings Drive, St. Louis, MO, USA 63130
>> (314) 935-4018
>> cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu OR cwc at oui.com
>> WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
>
> IS THIS the most extensive discussion/explanation Carl has given in
> the archives? I am reading the late Neva Miller's comments
> on "deponent" verbs in the Fribergs' (and her) Analytical Lexicon,
> and I wanted to be sure I have all of Carl's comments (or others'
> similar comments), too, so I can more clearly and accurately
> explain "deponent" verbs to my students and explain/suggest why
> they should NOT be called "deponents" and/or why they shouldn't
> think that Greeks couldn't tell an active voice from a
> middle/passive one.
>
>
> Eric S. Weiss
> eweiss at gte.net
> http://home1.gte.net/vzn05pnm/index.htm
>
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