[B-Greek] Re: basic question about various texts...
Raymond Allan Johnson
rjohns80 at hotmail.com
Thu Oct 2 14:55:01 EDT 2003
That seems like an AWFUL big assumption, even for a Prof.!
The "minority" prefer the Byzantine? Says who?
Wouldn't it have been better to leave the bias aside, and simply say that
most 20th century English-language Bibles are supported by the NA/UBS texts?
Mike: I think the Professor's best advice on this one was : "Don't ask that
in a crowded room if tempers are on edge. You'd be sure to
get a black eye in the resulting melee! :)"
Just Mho
If you are considering which you might download, the Nestle and UBS texts
are usually not available, whereas the TR and the Westcott & Horts are.
If you are asking which might be best to consult in a LIBRARY, on the other
hand, you might find it useful to compare for yourself - bearing in mind the
TRs' affinity for the Byzantine readings.
I suppose the question about which in **best** will depend upon whether you
belong to the "minority" or the "majority" :~)
Keep the Faith
RAY
(Rev. Raymond A. Johnson)
http://erajemi.com/
http://www.revdrjohnson.com/
http://acolw.org/pastor.htm
http://xjw-central.com
http://erajemi.com
"I believe it is important today to position the church as a family, rather
than as an institution. Since the 1960s Americans have become increasingly
anti-institutional. They use the phrase "organized religion" with contempt.
On the other hand, people are longing for a sense of family and community."
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Today's Topics:
1. How do I unsubscribe? (Ted Shoemaker)
2. unsubscribe me PLEASE (yingkit lo)
3. Grain in Matthew 17:20 (Hammond)
4. Re: Unsubscribing, changing options for list mail (Carl W. Conrad)
5. RE: Grain in Matthew 17:20 (Brent Hudson)
6. Re: Indirect Object (Carl W. Conrad)
7. Re: Indirect Object (waldo slusher)
8. basic question about various texts... (Mike Singleton)
9. RE: basic question about various texts... (bgreek at ntresources.com)
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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 16:54:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ted Shoemaker <shoemakerted at yahoo.com>
Subject: [B-Greek] How do I unsubscribe?
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 08:43:33 +0000
From: "yingkit lo" <lo_yingkit at hotmail.com>
Subject: [B-Greek] unsubscribe me PLEASE
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 23:59:41 -0500
From: "Hammond" <dhammond3 at earthlink.net>
Subject: [B-Greek] Grain in Matthew 17:20
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If my reading is correct "grain" in Matthew 17:20 is translated Cedron,
which according to Moulton and Milligan is black or turpid or a torrent and
is used in reference to the brook of the same name. Why would translators
take the liberty of using grain? Maybe "black" mustard seed would be more
appropriate? I am new at Greek so be sensitive.
Thanks
Doug HammondFrom cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu Thu Oct 2 06:59:39 2003
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Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 06:51:37 -0400
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From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
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Subject: [B-Greek] Indirect Object
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Forwarded for: "Lisa Novotny" <lisanovotny at hotmail.com>
Subject: Indirect Object
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 20:54:41 -0700
Can something other than a person be an indirect object?
For example: I bought clay to make a sculpture for the crafts fair.
Would "the crafts fair" be the indirect object?
Thank you for your help
Lisa Novotny
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 07:17:18 -0400
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
Subject: [B-Greek] Re: Unsubscribing, changing options for list mail
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I am well aware, as I'm sure are most of our regular subscribers that there
will always be some subscribers who will send their requests to unsubscribe
directly to all members of the list instead of to a list-moderator or
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--
Carl W. Conrad
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Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 08:56:14 -0300
From: "Brent Hudson" <brent at riveroflifembchurch.com>
Subject: RE: [B-Greek] Grain in Matthew 17:20
To: "Greek Email List" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>,
dhammond3 at earthlink.net
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KOKKOS in Matthew 17.20, the word can refer to the "pouch" or "seed" of a
female insect (kermes) which were dried and then used to make a
purple/scarlet dye (cf., BAGD). It is a reasonable development for the
meaning of KOKKOS to eventually refer to the colour of the dye itself.
When words have more than one possible meaning, one is not more correct than
the other (e.g., in English apology = "defence" and apology = "expression of
regret". Context will determine which was intended). In the case of Matthew
17.20, the word SINAPI (mustard) clarifies KOKKOS as referring to 'seed' not
the kermesberry.
Brent Hudson
-----Original Message-----
If my reading is correct "grain" in Matthew 17:20 is translated Cedron,
which according to Moulton and Milligan is black or turpid or a torrent and
is used in reference to the brook of the same name. Why would translators
take the liberty of using grain? Maybe "black" mustard seed would be more
appropriate? I am new at Greek so be sensitive.
Thanks
Doug Hammond
---
B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
B-Greek mailing list
B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 07:56:39 -0400
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Indirect Object
To: "Lisa Novotny" <lisanovotny at hotmail.com>
Cc: Biblical Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <p06002038bba1bdcfd85f@[63.153.100.201]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 6:51 AM -0400 10/2/03, Lisa Novotny wrote:
>Can something other than a person be an indirect object?
>
>For example: I bought clay to make a sculpture for the crafts fair.
>
>Would "the crafts fair" be the indirect object?
Presumably you are using an English sentence but are really asking about
terminology normally used for Greek grammar.
The term "indirect object" is most commonly used in English--and by
traditional Greek grammarians as well--to refer to individual or collective
persons/groups TO or FOR whom the verbal action is performed. In terms of
that definition "the crafts fair" in your sentence would NOT be an
"indirect object" but rather the noun in a phrase "to the crafts fair"
which adverbially modifies the verb "make."
Increasingly nowadays grammarians are using the term "complement" rather
than "object" to refer to words relating adverbially to a transitive verb;
in Greek, this may be a "direct" complement, an accusative of the person or
thing receiving the action of the verb, or an "indirect" complement,
indicating the person affected in some way by the action of the verb, e.g.
the person for whom or to whom the action is carried out: in Greek this
would normally be expressed with a dative-case form. In Koine Greek,
however, this may just as likely be an accusative governed by the
preposition PROS or some other preposition.
This problem of terminology is further "muddied" by the fact that verbs
that don't take a direct object, especially intransitive verbs, may take a
dative complement which could easily be called an indirect object although
it isn't a person.
For example, PROSERCONTAI TWi hIERWi,"they approach the temple." In English
we'd probably understand "approach" as a transitive verb and call "the
temple" the direct object of "approach." In Greek TWi hIERWi clearly enough
functions as a "complement" for PROSERCONTAI but it wouldn't normally be
called an "indirect object." Some Greek grammarians tend to call this a
"dative of destination." I guess that adequately describes it, but I really
think that this whole business of "objects" and "complements" of verbs is
somewhat fuzzy. What do our professional linguists on the list say about
this? I think it's something worth trying to reach a consensus about,
whether or not we ever reach a complete agreement.
--
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 05:47:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: waldo slusher <waldoslusher at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Indirect Object
To: Biblical Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <20031002124704.27007.qmail at web41103.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Can something other than a person be an indirect
> object?
Looks like an English question to me, so......
Yes. The indirect object identifies to or for whom or
what the action of the verb is performed.
I gave the ball to Spot (my dog).
I gave money to United Way (a charity).
=====
Waldo Slusher
Calgary, AB
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 08:26:00 -0700
From: "Mike Singleton" <masingleton at xroadschurch.com>
Subject: [B-Greek] basic question about various texts...
To: "B Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
<!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAA+3glXic9BEm60I5rBpKijcKAAAAQAAAAeBDmSptMCkWURBBd+s7YCgEAAAAA at xroadschurch.com>
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What is the difference between these? Is one better than the other?
Byzantine Greek
Greek New Testament NA27
Scrivener 1894 TR
Stephens 1550 TR
Stephen TR Parsed w/Scrivener Variants
Westcott-Hort Text w/ NA27 Variants
+++
Mike Singleton
"Patience is the companion of wisdom."
- Augustine
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 11:44:09 -0400
From: bgreek at ntresources.com
Subject: RE: [B-Greek] basic question about various texts...
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20031002155025.5005.qmail at mailshell.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Don't ask that in a crowded room if tempers are on edge. You'd be sure to
get a black eye in the resulting melee! :)
I'll be content with the observations that:
1. The only "modern" texts listed (i.e., those that take advantage of
current knowledge and evidence for the text of the NT) are the Byzantine
(*IF* by that you refer to the Robinson/Pierpont text) and NA27.
2. The vast majority of NT scholarship would prefer the NA text. There is a
small minority who would argue for the Byzantine text (not persuasively
IMHO).
3. The NA27 text is identical with the most commonly used (in schools/by
students) text, the UBS4. You don't list the UBS text, but my guess from the
names given is that you've found an online listing of texts available. Be
aware that most such texts that can be downloaded are very difficult to
read/use. If you are looking for a text available online that will result in
a readable format, I'd suggest that you get the following copy of the UBS
text (I think it's the older UBS3, though the text is nearly identical).
http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~hancock/nt.zip
This is in Unicode format as a Word document. (If Unicode is something new,
see the details at:
http://faculty.bbc.edu/rdecker/unicode.htm)
Beyond that, I doubt the list parameters would encourage much discussion of
such issues.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Rodney J. Decker, Th.D., Assoc. Professor/NT
Baptist Bible Seminary, Clarks Summit, PA, USA
URL: www.NTResources.com
PURL: purl.oclc.org/NT_Resources/
Email: <rdecker> at <NTResources.com>
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Singleton
> [mailto:masingleton.at.xroadschurch.com at bgreek.at.ntresources.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 11:26 AM
> To: B Greek
> Subject: [B-Greek] basic question about various texts...
>
>
> What is the difference between these? Is one better than the other?
>
>
>
> Byzantine Greek
>
> Greek New Testament NA27
>
> Scrivener 1894 TR
>
> Stephens 1550 TR
>
> Stephen TR Parsed w/Scrivener Variants
>
> Westcott-Hort Text w/ NA27 Variants
>
>
>
>
>
> +++
>
> Mike Singleton
>
> "Patience is the companion of wisdom."
>
> - Augustine
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>
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