[B-Greek] Re: B-Greek Digest, Vol 10, Issue 9

Arthur King whonexus at att.net
Wed Oct 8 16:33:04 EDT 2003


Maurice,
I know that literary titles are not copyrightable in the USA.  I can't say
anything about other countries.
Art King

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <b-greek-request at lists.ibiblio.org>
To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2003 12:00
Subject: B-Greek Digest, Vol 10, Issue 9


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| Today's Topics:
|
|    1. A familiar name (Maurice A. O'Sullivan)
|    2. Paul the Letter Writer (Maurice A. O'Sullivan)
|    3. Re: Prepositional Phrase [How Did Greeks Think?] (Mark Lama)
|    4. Re: PROSKUNEW (Carl W. Conrad)
|    5. Re: AIDIOS (Carl W. Conrad)
|
|
| ----------------------------------------------------------------------
|
| Message: 1
| Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 17:28:34 +0100
| From: "Maurice A. O'Sullivan" <mauros at iol.ie>
| Subject: [B-Greek] A familiar name
| To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
| Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031007172634.02014e20 at pop.iol.ie>
| Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
|
| The name of Kenneth D. Litwak is a familiar one to B-Greekers.
|
| They may like to read his review in the latest on-line edition of the
| Review of Biblical Literature:
|
| Hatina, Thomas R.
| In Search of a Context: The Function of Scripture in Mark's Narrative
| http://www.bookreviews.org/bookdetail.asp?TitleId=3043
| Reviewed by Kenneth D. Litwak
|
| Enjoy!
|
| Maurice
|
|
| Maurice A. O'Sullivan  [ Bray, Ireland ]
| mauros at iol.ie
|
|
|
| ------------------------------
|
| Message: 2
| Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 17:50:15 +0100
| From: "Maurice A. O'Sullivan" <mauros at iol.ie>
| Subject: [B-Greek] Paul the Letter Writer
| To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
| Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20031007173643.00b01e00 at pop.iol.ie>
| Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
|
| Another book of interest to the list reviewed in the latest RBL on-line
| edition is:
|
| Stirewalt, M. Luther
| Paul: The Letter Writer
| http://www.bookreviews.org/bookdetail.asp?TitleId=3166
| Reviewed by Gerald L Stevens
|
| This title stirred my (failing) memory, and  when I checked my shelves, I
| found that is only eight years since the publication of:
| Murphy-O'Connor, Jerome. Paul the Letter-Writer. (Good News Studies Vol.41
| ). Collegeville; Liturgical Press, 1995.
|
| I had the notion that identical titles were to be avoided -- for copyright
| reasons (?). Admittedly the earlier work has the extended sub-title:
|  >> His world, his options, his skills << but does it strike anyone else
as
| oddly confusing, from such a reputable publisher as Eerdmans?
|
| In any case, the reviewer concludes with these words of praise:
|
|  >> I am grateful for this small but significant book in which Stirewalt
| has worked to situate
| the Pauline letters into their proper literary context in the ancient
| world. The analysis is
| sound. The contribution to Pauline studies is solid. I have been helped in
| my reading of
| Paul and anticipate future benefits of further development of the
thesis.<<
|
|
|
|
| Maurice A. O'Sullivan  [ Bray, Ireland ]
| mauros at iol.ie
|
|
|
| ------------------------------
|
| Message: 3
| Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 13:32:19 -0700 (PDT)
| From: Mark Lama <markosl80 at yahoo.com>
| Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Prepositional Phrase [How Did Greeks Think?]
| To: Doug Hoxworth <dhoxworth at charter.net>
| Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
| Message-ID: <20031007203219.51014.qmail at web41609.mail.yahoo.com>
| Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
|
|
|
| Doug Hoxworth <dhoxworth at charter.net> wrote:
|
|
| but this brings up another question that i've been
| wondering for some time and even more now that i'm trying
| to learn to actually "read" Greek rather than merely
| analyze it. i understand that the word order is relatively
| free but my additional question is how did they actually
| think or put the thought together as they read. having
| english as my native tongue when i try and read Greek it
| seems rather disjointed in thought as if the writer just
| keeps adding thoughts. i mean since they read from left to
| right then the sentence has to make sense as one reads it
| now just as we analyze it, parse it, diagram it, translate
| it, etc.
|
| perhaps this is just my complete ignorance as to foreign
| language but i'm trying to get my arms around this idea of
| how they put ideas and thoughts together. i really don't
| know exactly what i'm asking...it really seems rather
| amorphous. but in Rev 13:8 in particular, how would the
| reader know when coming to the final prepositional phrase
| that it was supposed to modify the verb which came way
| before it (i.e., it is quite distant from it)?
|
|
| [Mark]
|
| This has been an interesting thread. The only thing that I would add to
Ranulf's, in my view, excellent reply is that even in reading one doesn't
strictly perceive a sentence "from left to right" but much more as a whole.
Likewise, in speech, one does not understand one word at a time, but, to an
extent, whole utterances. Not being trained in psycholinguistics, I am
really not equipped to shed any light on how English speakers think, let
alone how ancient Greek speakers thought, but from personal experience I
know that as one reads more and more Greek the painful word-by-word,
left-to-right sensation diminishes, and one begins spontaneously to grasp
whole thoughts. At some point of familiarity, the text begins to "open up",
and one begins to see whole word-blocks together, as one does while reading
one's native language. It is an experiance of "peripheral vision" that comes
as one no longer has to pause over every word and form. The key is to begin
learning how to think in Gr
|  eek by
|  eliminating the "translation step" and internalizing the meaning directly
from the source-language. It would be well if NT Greek learning programs
more commonly had this as a central goal. There are tecniques on both the
teaching and learning side that can be used to make this easier. Maybe
someday some of the modern research on language learning will trickle down
to the classical languages.
|
| CARIS KAI EIRHNH,
|
| Mark Lama
|
|
|
|
| ---------------------------------
| Do you Yahoo!?
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| To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
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| Subject: [B-Greek] PROSKUNEW
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|
| Is PROSKUNEW made up of two words, PROS (meaning toward) and KUNE =
| (meaning ?) with W being the first person singular? I have heard the =
| explanation of the word originating from a Hebrew word meaning "to bow" =
| or "to pay homage to" and that according to Moulton and Milligan =
| reference to the use of this word in a letter of a slave performing =
| service to a master (maybe that is what is missing in most definitions, =
| that worship is really referring to serving with the attitude of =
| obeisance). Again, realizing that context is the key to choosing the =
| definition that most closely fits that context, if it is two words, =
| understanding the second word root KUNE might help in choosing the =
| definition.
| Thanks
| Doug HammondFrom garret at shaw.ca  Wed Oct  8 00:35:07 2003
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| with ESMTP id <0HMF00DK17WO8V at l-daemon> for b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org;
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| Tue, 07 Oct 2003 22:17:13 -0600 (MDT)
| Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 22:17:11 -0600
| From: Garret <garret at shaw.ca>
| Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Introduction
| In-reply-to: <00cd01c38c94$3f07cc70$01ffa8c0 at wsmp2p96a>
| To: "Michael G. Oravecz" <moravecz at praxtech.com>,
| B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
| Message-id: <BBA8EBE7.11ED0%garret at shaw.ca>
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|
| Thanks for all the support and help with the Greek text.
|
| I owned a copy of the UBS and based on the info gracefully supplied here I
| just got my copy of the Nestle-Aland 27th edition.
|
| I can see why the type issue was raised, for me I like both for different
| reasons. I like the UBS for its style (the typeset is picturesque) and its
| attention to form and text criticism based on pericopes. I found the Greek
| New Testament (UBS) apparatus restricted to selected passages, it seemed
to
| be aimed at translators. Novum Testamentum Graece apparatus on the other
| hand (at first glance at least) seems to be more extensive, giving detail
to
| the transmission of the text in an earlier period.
|
| For me anyways I like Novum Testamentum Graece apparatus, much more
| detailed, just what I was looking for. Now I if I can start to read it
| fluently I will be set.
|
| I am looking forward to reading these pots I have already learnt so much.
|
| Thanks and God Bless.
|
|
| On 10/6/03 11:31 PM, "Michael G. Oravecz" <moravecz at praxtech.com> wrote:
|
| > Garet wrote:
| >>> October 06, 2003 4:48 PM
| >>> Is there any other Greek New Testament that is
| >>>  used by Greek scholars other than the UBS?
| >
| > There are (at least) two main versions of the Greek New Testament used
by
| > scholars.
| >
| > 1) The Alexandrian texttype. This is the text in the UBS 4th edition and
the
| > Nestle-Aland 27th edition. The UBS and N-A editions now provide the same
| > text, but each has its own critical apparatus. This is an eclectic
version
| > of the New Testament put together by a group of scholars based on their
text
| > critical view of the known manuscripts. The UBS and N-A editions,
although
| > eclectic, are largely considered to represent the Alexandrian texttype.
The
| > UBS and N-A New Testament is influenced by Westcott and Hort (1881).
| >
| > 2) The Byzantine/Majority texttype. This text is largely based on the
Greek
| > New Testament manuscripts used in the medieval Byzantine Empire (Eastern
| > Roman Empire) and in the commonwealth regions which were strongly
influenced
| > by Byzantine culture. (The Slavic regions being one of the largest of
such
| > commonwealth regions.) There are several very similar but not identical
| > versions of this text:
| > Recent scholarship has provided :
| > - Byzantine/Majority textform by Robinson and Pierpont, 1991
| > - Majority text by Hodges and Farstad, 1985
| > Somewhat older scholarship has provided (these are probably the same,
but I
| > am not certain):
| > - The approved text of the Patriarch of Constantinople, published first
in
| > 1904 by B. Antoniades
| > - the Original Patriarch text as it is used by the Greek Orthodox Church
| >
| > The Original Patriarchal text can be downloaded in MS Word format from
the
| > following sites:
| > http://kainh.homestead.com/English.html
| > http://kainh.homestead.com/Greek.html
| >
| > The various versions of the Received Text (Textus Receptus) are similar
to
| > the Byzantine/Majority text since the Received Text was based on
Byzantine
| > Greek manuscripts. The Received Text is used for historical scholarship
| > purposes.
| >
| > Other texttypes used in current scholarship include the Western and
| > Caesarean.
| >
| > Best wishes,
| > Mike Oravecz
| >
| >
| >
| > ----- Original Message -----
| > From: "Garret" <garret at shaw.ca>
| > To: "B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
| > Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 4:48 PM
| > Subject: [B-Greek] Introduction
| >
| >
| >> Hi all,
| >>     My name is Garret Parsons and I just subscribed to this group.
| >> I am training to become a Pastor, taking the "Certificate in Ministry"
| >> course at Regent Collage (Vancouver BC, Canada). I have been an artist
for
| >> 30 years, so this is quite a change for me.
| >>
| >> I was surprised that learning Greek is not a requirement anymore, even
| >> though the collage does express that it would be helpful at least to
| >> understand the alphabet. I find Greek to be fascinating and I am more
| >> comfortable with Greek than English. ;-). I have bought quite a few
books
| > on
| >> learning Greek and have bought the Greek New Testament, UBS (Kurt
Aland)
| >> forth addition.
| >>
| >> I will most likely just lurk most of the time since my Greek is not at
the
| >> caliber that is obvious here, but I do have one question.
| >>
| >> Is there any other Greek New Testament that is used by Greek scholars
| > other
| >> than the UBS? Just interested.
| >>
| >> Thanks.
| >>
| >> -Garret
| >>
| >> ---
| >> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
| >> B-Greek mailing list
| >> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
| >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
| >
| >
| > ---
| > B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
| > B-Greek mailing list
| > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
| > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
|
| -- 
| Garret Parsons
| Youth Minister
| (Lay Minister)
| Northmount Baptist Church
| Certificate in Ministry
| Cary Theological Collage,
| Regent Collage.
| E-mail: garret at shaw.ca
| --
| B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
| B-Greek mailing list
| B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
| http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
|
|
| ------------------------------
|
| Message: 4
| Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:09:14 -0400
| From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
| Subject: Re: [B-Greek] PROSKUNEW
| To: "Hammond" <dhammond3 at earthlink.net>
| Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
| Message-ID: <p06002020bba9bb7a632d@[63.153.58.89]>
| Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
|
| At 10:42 PM -0500 10/7/03, Hammond wrote:
| >Is PROSKUNEW made up of two words, PROS (meaning toward) and KUNE
(meaning
| >?) with W being the first person singular? I have heard the explanation
of
| >the word originating from a Hebrew word meaning "to bow" or "to pay
homage
| >to" and that according to Moulton and Milligan reference to the use of
| >this word in a letter of a slave performing service to a master (maybe
| >that is what is missing in most definitions, that worship is really
| >referring to serving with the attitude of obeisance). Again, realizing
| >that context is the key to choosing the definition that most closely fits
| >that context, if it is two words, understanding the second word root KUNE
| >might help in choosing the definition.
|
| The verb derives from PROS and KUNEW; the latter verb means "to kiss" and
| although not found in the GNT is well exemplified in older Greek. The verb
| PROSKUNEW is used of gestures of reverence in 5th century B.C. accounts of
| practice in the non-Greek cultures to the east, then becomes a regular
word
| for "worship" BDAG gives: "Freq. used to designate the custom of
| prostrating oneself before persons and kissing their feet or the hem of
| their garment, the ground, etc.; the Persians did this in the presence of
| their deified king, and the Greeks before a divinity or someth. holy.) "
|
| While the Greek word may have been used to translate a Hebrew word into
| Greek, there's no evidence whatsoever that the Greek word itself derives
| from Hebrew.
| -- 
|
| Carl W. Conrad
| Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
| 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
| cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
| WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
|
| ------------------------------
|
| Message: 5
| Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 09:31:18 -0400
| From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
| Subject: Re: [B-Greek] AIDIOS
| To: Robee888 at aol.com
| Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
| Message-ID: <p06002021bba9bd0ec209@[63.153.58.89]>
| Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
|
| At 11:20 AM -0400 10/3/03, Robert Beecham <Robee888 at aol.com> wrote:
| >I've just found your address in a correspondence about the word aidios
from 4
| >years ago.
| >
| >I was searching the internet becauSe I have been wondering if the word
aidios
| >could mean invisible.
| >
| >My reasons are that Hades (Aides) is taken to mean the unseen world, and
| >aidios looks very similar.
| >
| >Also the Hebrew word olam, which lies behind the Greek words aion and
aionios
| >throughout the Septuagint, comes from a root alam which means hidden.
|
| This has gone for the better part of a week without an answer, so let me
| make a tentative response.
|
| I think I have seen somewhere (I can't remember where) in Greek literature
| a suggested etymological linkage between AiDHS ("Hades" interpreted as
"the
| invisible one" from A- privative and fID "see") and AIDIOS, but I don't
| think that there's any valid connection. Rather AIDIOS derives from the
| adverb AEI "always." AIWN and AIWNIOS derive from the same element (AEI/AI
| +WN/ON {EIMI}), but of course, usage rather than etymology is ultimately
| what must govern our understanding of the meaning. Certainly the Greek
word
| doesn't derive from the Hebrew, even if it is used in the LXX or in the
GNT
| to represent the Hebrew word  "Olam."
|
| LSJ notes, at the bottom of its entry on AIDIOS, "AIDIOS is dist. fr.
| AIWNIOS as everlasting from timeless , Olymp. in Mete. 146.16; but dist.
| fr. AEIZWOS as eternal (without beginning or end) from everliving, Corp.
| Herm .8.2. :
| -- 
|
| Carl W. Conrad
| Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
| 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
| cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
| WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
|
| ------------------------------
|
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|
| End of B-Greek Digest, Vol 10, Issue 9
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