[B-Greek] Deponents (was 2nd aorsit ... FOLLOW UP)
Carl W. Conrad
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri Apr 2 11:48:22 EST 2004
At 9:06 AM -0500 4/2/04, Stephen C. Carlson wrote:
>At 11:35 AM 4/1/04 -0500, Carl W. Conrad wrote:
>>At 12:28 AM -0500 4/1/04, Stephen C. Carlson wrote:
>>>Coming from Latin, which does have a real deponent
>>>system, I was naturally very inclined to hold on to
>>>the concept of deponency in Greek. But it hurt more
>>>than helped in Greek. ...
>>
>>I personally think that the term "deponent" is no more useful in Latin than
>>it is in Greek; I think it can be readily demonstrated that the verbs with
>>-OR lemmas in Latin are really middle-voice forms. Latin SEQUOR derives
>>from the very same PIE root as Greek hEPOMAI and functions like it with a
>>dative complement. The so-called "Greek accusative" is best explained like
>>its Greek prototype as the direct object of a middle-voice participle. I
>>remember my puzzlement when I first read the form VOLVITUR in Aeneid 1
>>which can only mean "rolls" and wondered why it was in the passive voice;
>>many years later I came to realize that it is NOT in the passive voice but
>>in the middle.
>>
>>I think that what has happened in Latin is much the same as what happened
>>in later Greek: although it is commonly claimed that the Greek middle-voice
>>was replaced by the passive, the fact seems rather to be that the Greek
>>middle-passive morphoparadigms in MAI/SAI/TAI came to be supplanted by
>>-QHN/QHS/QH forms with the same dual functions. That's what happened in
>>Latin also, I believe: the OR/RIS/TUR forms bear BOTH middle AND passive
>>senses, depending upon the particular verb.
>
>I think the difference is that Latin does not have a distinct
>middle-voice morphology, and it is difficult to come up with a
>fairly unified conceptual explanation for how Latin deponents
>behave. Some are certainly middle in force (but I'm not quite
>convinced yet that VOLVITUR in Aen. 1.116 is one of them), but
>others like AGGREDIOR and CONSECTOR behave syntactically no
>differently from other transitives with active-voice morphology,
>and it's hard to see any appreciable semantic difference from
>their active-voice synonyms.
>
>On the other hand, I've never really been a fan of "passive in
>form but active in meaning," so I would tend to endorse an under-
>standing of a deponent as a verb with passive-voice morphology
>that "lays down" (DEPONET) its passive meaning in favor of a
>non-passive meaning. That non-passive meaning need not be
>"active," and can be what we would call middle if in Greek.
>When explained to the English native speakers, whose language
>lacks a distinct middle voice, calling that non-passive meaning
>"active" is perhaps no more an oversimplification than a lot
>of other rules of thumb given at an early point. You certainly
>have a lot more experience teaching Latin than I do, so it would
>be interesting to find out for me whether this oversimplication
>is as harmful as "dative = to/for" or other early heuristics.
This is not really an appropriate forum for discussing Latin morphology and
syntax; therefore I'll add only a couple footnotes to the discussion at
this point: (1) Defining "deponent" as a verb that "lays down its passive
meaning" strikes me as no better than defining it as a verb that "lays down
its active form"); it's hard for me to see how we can see a verb "lays
down" something that there's no evidence it ever had; (2) Latin "Greek
accusatives" (so-called "passive" participles with accusative
direct-objects might better be understood as I think the original Greek
construction such as DEDEMENOS TOUS PODAS, as a middle particple with a
direct object; (3) Latin has a great number of reflexive verbs and these
increase in later Vulgar Latin; they seem to become the basis of the
Romance Languages reflexive which functions much like the Greek
middle-passive. Suffice it to say that the phenomena of voice in Latin are
at least as complex as those in Greek, although there are different factors
at play there.
>The perniciousness of Latinate approach to Greek on deponents
>is that Greek does indeed have a distinct and productive middle
>voice, and labeling a set of verbs as "deponent" robs the student
>of the opportunity for appreciating how these verbs really are
>(lexically) middle and what the full force of the middle can be in
>other Greek verbs.
>
>I might propose that "deponent" for Greek be banned in favor of
>something like "lexically middle" (not so dissimiliar to the
>concept that some verbs are lexically stative, durative, etc.,
>which affects which morphology can be used.). I don't think
>that Latin deponents can be disposed of so easily (and perhaps
>that's true for a rump of nasty exceptions to Greek deponents
>as well).
>
>Stephen Carlson
>--
>Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson at mindspring.com
>Weblog: http://www.mindspring.com/~scarlson/hypotyposeis/blogger.html
>"Poetry speaks of aspirations, and songs chant the words." Shujing 2.35
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
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