[B-Greek] Re: B-Greek Digest, Vol 16, Issue 9 - Greek Dictionary

Raymond Custer leoncuster at yahoo.com
Thu Apr 8 15:01:33 EDT 2004


I am not aware of a Greek dictionary from from early church period. I assume we get our definitions from context of Scripture and secular writings.  Does anyone know the oldest dictioary in existence?

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: QEOS masc or fem FOLLOW UP (Mitch Larramore)
2. Re: QEOS masc or fem FOLLOW UP (Joseph Weaks)
3. Re: QEOS masc or fem FOLLOW UP (Arie Dirkzwager)
4. Re: QEOS masc or fem FOLLOW UP (Carl W. Conrad)
5. Public Domain Vocab. List with Glosses? (Jonathan Fortune)
6. MNHMONEUW (Eddie Mishoe)
7. Acts 21,10 enclitic TIS (Eddie Mishoe)
8. Re: Acts 21,10 enclitic TIS (bertdehaan at gosympatico.ca)
9. Re: MNHMONEUW (Carl W. Conrad)
10. RE: QEOS masc or fem (Iver Larsen)
11. RE: QEOS masc or fem (Carl W. Conrad)
12. Understanding Greek Verb Tense/Aspect (Barry W. Hickey)
13. Revelation 12:7 (Carl W. Conrad)
14. Re: Understanding Greek Verb Tense/Aspect (Carl W. Conrad)
15. Re: Understanding Greek Verb Tense/Aspect (dhoxworth at charter.net)


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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 09:55:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mitch Larramore 
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] QEOS masc or fem FOLLOW UP
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20040407165535.87410.qmail at web9406.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I don't have my Athenaze textbook in front of me, but
I thought that there was a distinct set of endings for
the feminine of QEOS. I recall seeing an -A in the
form (plurals?)....I think!

=====
Mitch Larramore
Spring Branch, Texas
Student/Memorial High School

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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 12:19:36 -0500
From: Joseph Weaks 
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] QEOS masc or fem FOLLOW UP
To: Biblical Greek 
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

On Apr 7, 2004, at 11:55 AM, Mitch Larramore wrote:
> I don't have my Athenaze textbook in front of me, but
> I thought that there was a distinct set of endings for
> the feminine of QEOS. I recall seeing an -A in the
> form (plurals?)....I think!

There is a H QEA in usage. But the presence of one in some literature, 
does not negate a differenct usage in other literature.

Joe Weaks



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 19:34:38 +0200
From: "Arie Dirkzwager" 
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] QEOS masc or fem FOLLOW UP
To: "Joseph Weaks" , "Biblical Greek"

Message-ID: <007301c41cc6$9a478fe0$ac225351 at pandora.be>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

For the sake of completeness.
In Acts 19: 27 we can find ALLA KAI TO THS MEGALHS QEAS ARTEMIDOS hIERON. In
verse 37 some manuscripts have QEAN for QEON. So, if we look at verse 27, we
see that hH QEA could surely be used in NT Greek.

Arie

Dr. A. Dirkzwager
Hoeselt, Belgium
e-mail dirkzwager at pandora.be

----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Van: "Joseph Weaks" 
Aan: "Biblical Greek" 
Verzonden: woensdag 7 april 2004 19:19
Onderwerp: Re: [B-Greek] QEOS masc or fem FOLLOW UP


> On Apr 7, 2004, at 11:55 AM, Mitch Larramore wrote:
> > I don't have my Athenaze textbook in front of me, but
> > I thought that there was a distinct set of endings for
> > the feminine of QEOS. I recall seeing an -A in the
> > form (plurals?)....I think!
>
> There is a H QEA in usage. But the presence of one in some literature,
> does not negate a differenct usage in other literature.
>
> Joe Weaks
>
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 13:28:24 -0400
From: "Carl W. Conrad" 
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] QEOS masc or fem FOLLOW UP
To: Mitch Larramore 
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: 

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 9:55 AM -0700 4/7/04, Mitch Larramore wrote:
>I don't have my Athenaze textbook in front of me, but
>I thought that there was a distinct set of endings for
>the feminine of QEOS. I recall seeing an -A in the
>form (plurals?)....I think!

You might look at QEOS in LSJ
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2348292)

You may be thinking of the opening line of the Iliad:

MHNIN AEIDE, QEA, PHLHIADEW ACILHOS

where QEA is vocative and addressed to the Muse. Yes, there is a noun QEA
(gen. QEAS, dat QEAi, acc. QEAN; it appears in Homer and poetry, but the
standard word in prose is QEOS of common gender.
-- 

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 14:24:44 -0700
From: Jonathan Fortune 
Subject: [B-Greek] Public Domain Vocab. List with Glosses?
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <4074719C.5070305 at moody.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii

Hey, I am studying NT Greek at Moody and I saw a posting that said you
had all 1000 of the vis-ed cards on a spreadsheet. Could I possibly get
that from you as an atatchment. If so, it would be greatly appreciated.
Also, do you know of any way to get metzger's list on spreadsheet. I
have quickmem, but cannot figure any way to get metzger's list on
spreadsheet.


Thanks so much for the help,
Jonathan Fortune



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 16:34:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Eddie Mishoe 
Subject: [B-Greek] MNHMONEUW
To: B Greek 
Message-ID: <20040407233422.53451.qmail at web41703.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Acts 20,31

DIO GRHGOREITE, MNHMONEUONTES hOTI TRIETIAN NUKTA KAI
hHMERAN OUK EPAUSAMHN META DAKRUWN NOUQETWN hENA
hEKASTON

MNHMONEUW means to remember or keep in mind. As I was
thinking about this verb and its Active voice, I
couldn't help but wonder why this word is not used in
the Middle voice. Does not the idea of "keeping
something in mind" seem like an ideal verb to bear a
Middle voice form? I hate asking questions about what
DOES NOT occur, but I thought responses to this might
give me a more concrete understanding of what
differentiates Active from Middle semantically
speaking. I do hope such a question is not
inappropriate for this list, for I have greatly
benefitted from the responses provided by the many
scholars on this web site!!! 

=====
Eddie Mishoe
Pastor

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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 17:57:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Eddie Mishoe 
Subject: [B-Greek] Acts 21,10 enclitic TIS
To: B Greek 
Message-ID: <20040408005728.96458.qmail at web41712.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


EPIMENONTWN DE hHMERAS PLEIOUS KATHLQEN (KATH^LQE’N)
TIS APO THS IOUDAIAS PROFHTHS ONOMATI hAGABOS

Please pardon my attempt to show accents, but that is
what my question is about. TIS is enclitic and its
accent mark, the accute??, appears on the preceding
verb. But what I don't understand is why it is accute.
TIS with the accute accent is the interrogative
pronoun. And TIS here seems to be the indefinite
pronoun. Why this accute accent on KATHLQEN?

=====
Eddie Mishoe
Pastor

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------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 21:45:30 -0400
From: 
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Acts 21,10 enclitic TIS
To: Eddie Mishoe 
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID:
<20040408014528.DTQR27069.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@[209.226.175.136]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO8859_1


Eddie Mishoe wrote on
Wed, 7 Apr 2004 17:57:28 ;

> EPIMENONTWN DE hHMERAS PLEIOUS KATHLQEN (KATH^LQE’N)
> TIS APO THS IOUDAIAS PROFHTHS ONOMATI hAGABOS
> 
> Please pardon my attempt to show accents, but that is
> what my question is about. TIS is enclitic and its
> accent mark, the accute??, appears on the preceding
> verb. But what I don't understand is why it is accute.
> TIS with the accute accent is the interrogative
> pronoun. And TIS here seems to be the indefinite
> pronoun. Why this accute accent on KATHLQEN?
> 
> =====
TIS is the indefinite pronoun. The interrogative pronoun is not enclitic so it would have kept its accent.
The enclitic TIS has lost its accent to the preceding word.
Now TIS is pronounced as the last sylable of KATHLQEN. So now the accute is actually not on the ultima any more so it can't change to a grave. (KATHLQEN ends up with two accents.)
This is how I understand it, I hope it is accurate.

Bert de Haan.



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 22:03:39 -0400
From: "Carl W. Conrad" 
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] MNHMONEUW
To: Eddie Mishoe 
Cc: B Greek 
Message-ID: 

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 4:34 PM -0700 4/7/04, Eddie Mishoe wrote:
>Acts 20,31
>
>DIO GRHGOREITE, MNHMONEUONTES hOTI TRIETIAN NUKTA KAI
>hHMERAN OUK EPAUSAMHN META DAKRUWN NOUQETWN hENA
>hEKASTON
>
>MNHMONEUW means to remember or keep in mind. As I was
>thinking about this verb and its Active voice, I
>couldn't help but wonder why this word is not used in
>the Middle voice. Does not the idea of "keeping
>something in mind" seem like an ideal verb to bear a
>Middle voice form? I hate asking questions about what
>DOES NOT occur, but I thought responses to this might
>give me a more concrete understanding of what
>differentiates Active from Middle semantically
>speaking. I do hope such a question is not
>inappropriate for this list, for I have greatly
>benefitted from the responses provided by the many
>scholars on this web site!!!

Actually this is a good question. In fact the standard verb for remember is
MIMNHSKOMAI and it is, of course, middle, as you might rightly expect. On
the other hand MNHMONEUW is what is called a "denominative" verb: a verb
derived from a noun or adjective, in this instance the adjective MNHMWN,
"mindful." MNHMONEUW is more of a stative type verb: "be mindful of," "keep
in mind." It has a frequentative and causative force to it.
-- 

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/


------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 07:47:33 +0300
From: "Iver Larsen" 
Subject: RE: [B-Greek] QEOS masc or fem
To: "Eddie Mishoe" , "B Greek"

Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

> In Acts 19:37 we find THN QEON, where QEON is a
> masculine form, although used with the feminine
> article THN QEON. I seem to recall there being
> feminine forms for QEOS. Didn't Greek have both
> masculine and feminine forms for QEOS?
>
> =====
> Eddie Mishoe
> Pastor

Since you are reading through Acts, you probably recall the word QEA from
19:27. QEA is specifically feminine, a goddess. QEOS is in itself not gender
specific, but normally used to refer to a masculine god. When THN QEON is
used here I suspect that the focus is on the semantic feature of "god"
(someone to be worshipped) over and above the feature of gender.

Most English translations render THN QEON in 19:37 as "goddess", but I think
it would be in order to translate "god" here, since the gender is not in
focus. Unless "god" in English always refer to a masculine entity?

Iver Larsen



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 05:59:10 -0400
From: "Carl W. Conrad" 
Subject: RE: [B-Greek] QEOS masc or fem
To: iver_larsen at sil.org
Cc: B Greek 
Message-ID: 

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 7:47 AM +0300 4/8/04, Iver Larsen wrote:
>> In Acts 19:37 we find THN QEON, where QEON is a
>> masculine form, although used with the feminine
>> article THN QEON. I seem to recall there being
>> feminine forms for QEOS. Didn't Greek have both
>> masculine and feminine forms for QEOS?
>>
>> =====
>> Eddie Mishoe
>> Pastor
>
>Since you are reading through Acts, you probably recall the word QEA from
>19:27. QEA is specifically feminine, a goddess. QEOS is in itself not gender
>specific, but normally used to refer to a masculine god. When THN QEON is
>used here I suspect that the focus is on the semantic feature of "god"
>(someone to be worshipped) over and above the feature of gender.
>
>Most English translations render THN QEON in 19:37 as "goddess", but I think
>it would be in order to translate "god" here, since the gender is not in
>focus. Unless "god" in English always refer to a masculine entity?

I am not aware of any English usage of "god" to refer to a non-masculine
entity in the singular; where it's used in the plural hOI QEOI it may refer
collectively to the Olympians or the entire pantheon collectively, but I
really can't imagine THN QEAN Englished as "the god" or any native English
speaker being anything but puzzled at "the god" as a reference to Diana of
Ephesus.
-- 

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/


------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 09:52:35 -0400
From: "Barry W. Hickey" 
Subject: [B-Greek] Understanding Greek Verb Tense/Aspect
To: 
Message-ID: <00ab01c41d70$bf599bc0$0300000a at Highlandsnt>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Greetings.

I'm slowly working my way through Mounce's BBG. After reading Chapter 15 (Introduction To Verbs) I'm not sure I correctly understand what Mounce is saying about tense, aspect, and the like. My initial understanding of Greek verb tense is as follows:

1) Tense does NOT convey when the action took/is taking place.
2) Tense only refers to the form of the verb.
3) Aspect is to be `discovered` based up on the form/tense of the verb.
4) Apect refers solely to the kind of action: perfective, imperfective, or stative.

Am I correct in my understanding or have I missed the boat? 

Lastly, can anyone suggest some supplemental material to BBG with regards to tense/aspect/aktionsart that a beginner would be able to comprehend?

Thanks,

Barry W. Hickey


------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 10:12:45 -0400
From: "Carl W. Conrad" 
Subject: [B-Greek] Revelation 12:7
To: "Biblical Greek" 
Message-ID: 

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Forwarded for: Ron Snider 
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 09:52:57 -0400

HO MICAHL KAI HOI AGGELOI AUTOU TOU POLEMHSAI META TOU DRAKONTOS

Many have noted that the grammar in Rev. 12:7 is "clumsy" (their words,
not mine), but one must wonder why the apparent subjects of the
infinitives are in the nominative case. My suspicion is that Michael is
indeclinable, and is the form used throughout the LXX, and that since he
is the primary subject of the infinitive the aggelos were nominative
simply by attraction, but will certainly be open to looking at other
options.
I would also like to get any ideas on what verb, if any, was elided
before the infinitive.

Theologically, I would like any responses (OFF-LIST ONLY, of course) as to
whether or not Michael instigated this war (active infinitive), and
one's general overall take on this verse. I am confident of the timing,
so please don't bother with that issue.

thanks in advance,

Ron Snider



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 10:18:58 -0400
From: "Carl W. Conrad" 
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Understanding Greek Verb Tense/Aspect
To: "Barry W. Hickey" 
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: 

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 9:52 AM -0400 4/8/04, Barry W. Hickey wrote:
>Greetings.
>
>I'm slowly working my way through Mounce's BBG. After reading Chapter 15
>(Introduction To Verbs) I'm not sure I correctly understand what Mounce is
>saying about tense, aspect, and the like. My initial understanding of
>Greek verb tense is as follows:
>
>1) Tense does NOT convey when the action took/is taking place.
>2) Tense only refers to the form of the verb.
>3) Aspect is to be `discovered` based up on the form/tense of the verb.
>4) Apect refers solely to the kind of action: perfective, imperfective, or
>stative.
>
>Am I correct in my understanding or have I missed the boat?
>
>Lastly, can anyone suggest some supplemental material to BBG with regards
>to tense/aspect/aktionsart that a beginner would be able to comprehend?

Let me anticipate Rod Decker's offering of his excellent expansion and
revision of Mounce's chapter 15:

http://faculty.bbc.edu/rdecker/documents/MounceCh15rev.pdf

I think you'll find it helpful.
-- 

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/


------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 14:31:20 +0000
From: 
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Understanding Greek Verb Tense/Aspect
To: "Barry W. Hickey" ,

Message-ID: <200404081431.i38EVLtx086574 at mxsf20.cluster1.charter.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

>
> Lastly, can anyone suggest some supplemental material to BBG with regards to tense/aspect/aktionsart that a beginner would be able to comprehend?


i have found that this online article is quite helpful:

http://www.ntgreek.net/present.htm

Doug Hoxworth
Luther Rice Seminary



------------------------------

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End of B-Greek Digest, Vol 16, Issue 9
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