[B-Greek] Acts 22,17;18 follow up2

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri Apr 9 09:55:37 EDT 2004


At 5:52 AM -0700 4/9/04, Mitch Larramore wrote:
>I never thought about this before but it does raise
>another question in my mind, namely, what is meant by
>different "subjects." It seems like the "experiencer"
>of both clauses is Paul, but yet "ME" and "MOI" are
>not GRAMMATICAL subjects, right? Obviously Paul is
>recounting what happened to him.

MOI is certainly not a grammatical subject, although it could be translated
so as to be one in the target language (PREPEI MOI hOUTWS PRATTEIN "it is
appropriate that I should act in this way"); there's some dispute over
whether one should refer to the accusative form functioning as subject in
an infinitive clause as a grammatical subject, but traditional grammar does
indeed use the term that way. You might want to take a look at Smyth,
§§1972-1981. Wallace GGBB discusses this on pp. 192ff.

Unless a verb is IMPERSONAL (e.g. NEIFEI "it's snowing" or hUEI "it's
raining") a verb must have a grammatical subject, whether that's a noun, a
pronoun or a substantival phrase or clause. Generally in indirect discourse
(except with a finite verb in a hOTI or hINA substantive clause) the
subject of an infinitive is in the accusative if it is different from the
subject of the main verb, or nominative if it is the same as that of the
main verb:

FHSIN ME TAUTA PRAXAI "he says that I did this."
FHSIN TAUTA PRAXAI AUTOS "he says that he did this himself" (where AUTOS is
in agreement with an implicit nominative subject of PRAXAI)


>--- "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
>wrote:
>> As I said, the infinitive phrase (which in English
>> we would formulate as a
>> noun clause) is the subject of EGENETO MOI. "Myself
>> to get in a trance and
>> to see him
>> happened to me." You must realize that this is a
>> complex sentence with
>> clauses subordinated to each other, but
>> syntactically we have to say that
>> the predicate of the main clause is EGENETO MOI and
>> the subject is GENESQAI
>> ... KAI IDEIN. Perhaps a rough diagrammatic
>> representation might help:
>>
>>
>> 	GENESQAI ME
>> 		EN EKSTASEI
>>
>> 	   KAI							EGENETO
>> 								    MOI
>>
>>
>> 	IDEIN       AUTON LEGONTA MOI     SPEUSON
>> 					  KAI
>> 					  EXELQE
>> 					     EN TACEI
>> 					     EX IEROUSALHM
>>
>> I haven't endeavored to represent the dative
>> participial phrases (they
>> attach to the MOI of GENESQAI MOI) or the genitive
>> absolute (it attaches to
>> GENESQAI KAI IDEIN by indicating the circumstances
>> of the occurrence of the
>> trance-vision.
>>
>> At 4:55 AM -0700 4/9/04, Eddie Mishoe wrote:
>> >I am not understanding the idea here then of the
>> >"subject" of the main clause. It appears that the
>> >subject in both clauses is "I" (Paul). Could
>> someone
>> >explain how there are two different subjects in
>> these
>> >clauses?
>> >
>> >
>> >--- "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
>> >wrote:
>> >> At 8:31 PM -0700 4/8/04, Eddie Mishoe wrote:
>> >> >EGENETO DE MOI hUPOSTREYANTI EIS IEROUSALHM KAI
>> >> >PROSEUCOMENOU MOU EN TWi hIERWi GENESQAI ME EN
>> >> >EKSTASEI, KAI IDEIN AUTON LEGONTA MOI, SPEUSON
>> KAI
>> >> >EXELQE EN TACEI EX IEROUSALHM,
>> >> >
>> >> >PROSEUCOMENOU MOU is identified as a Genitive
>> >> Absolute
>> >> >because its subject is different from that of
>> the
>> >> main
>> >> >clause. What is the subject of the main clause
>> >> here?
>> >>
>> >> The subject of the main clause (predicate EGENETO
>> >> MOI) is the compound
>> >> infinitive phrase--functioning like a substantive
>> >> clause--GENESQAI ME ...
>> >> KAI IDEIN ...): lit. "me to come to be in a
>> trance
>> >> and to see ..." which in
>> >> standard English would become "that I came to be
>> in
>> >> a trance and saw ..."
>> >>
>> >> Older Attic Greek would have put that genitive
>> >> absolute into another
>> >> participle in the dative thus: EGENETO DE MOI
>> >> hUPOYTREYANTI EIS IEEROUSALHM
>> >> KAI PROSEUCOMENWi EN TWi hIERWi GENESQAI ME EN
>> >> EKSTASEI KAI IDEIN ... ""And
>> >> it happened to me when I had returned to
>> Jerusalem
>> >> and was praying in the
>> >> temple that I came to be in a trance and saw ..."
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >> Carl W. Conrad
>> >> Department of Classics, Washington University
>> >> (Emeritus)
>> >> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828)
>> >> 675-4243
>> >> cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
>> >> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>> >
>> >
>> >=====
>> >Eddie Mishoe
>> >Pastor
>> >
>> >__________________________________
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>> >---
>> >B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
>> >B-Greek mailing list
>> >B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
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>>
>> --
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University
>> (Emeritus)
>> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828)
>> 675-4243
>> cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
>> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>> ---
>> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
>> B-Greek mailing list
>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>
>
>=====
>Mitch Larramore
>Spring Branch, Texas
>Student/Memorial High School
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
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>---
>B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
>B-Greek mailing list
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>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

-- 

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/



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