[B-Greek] Re: Understanding Greek Verb Tense/Aspect
waldo slusher
waldoslusher at yahoo.com
Fri Apr 9 16:28:53 EDT 2004
Carl:
What you've done here is convert English back to Greek
and then comment on the Greek. My comments concerned
English, and it was obviously meant to show a temporal
"mismatch." Did you like Buth's example better?
My point was to show that you can use past tense verbs
when referencing future events (in English). If your
concern is that Greek Perfects are not Past tense
(which I would disagree with), then my point becomes
to you that you can use Present tense verbs (in
Greek??) for future events (in English??). Now you've
got me confused!
And yes, in Greek, the Perfect (and Aorist) would
denote the certainty of its (a future event's)
fulfillment. This we agree on. (Although I disagree
with your specific TETELESTAI example.)
Waldo
======end of this response=======
--- "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
wrote:
> At 9:33 AM -0700 4/9/04, waldo slusher wrote:
>
> >The drawing for the lottery is tomorrow, but as far
> as
> >I am concerned, I've won it. It's a done deal.
> >
> >Here are "past tense" verbs being used of a future
> >event. If your linguistic approach cannot admit any
> >exceptions (if one rule must explain all known
> >occurrences), then "past tense" verbs must be
> >abandoned. That is an extreme approach, but if one
> >only slightly varies from that, then their
> conclusions
> >will only slightly vary from that.
>
> Waldo, these sentences don't quite "prove" what
> you're claiming nor do they
> really provide an adequate analogy for Greek usage.
> Both sentences, "I've
> won it" and "It's a done deal" are, in effect,
> perfect tenses and carry a
> stative sense; the first is comparable to John 16:33
> EGW NENIKHKA TON
> KOSMON, the second to John 19:30 TETELESTAI. These
> are statements of
> assurance of the finality of things as the
> statements are offered, even if,
> as you might claim, they both refer to future
> events, Christ's ultimate
> eschatological victory and his death's final
> fulfillment of his mission.
> The perfect tense often carries this constative
> force--indicating the sure
> conviction of the consummation of what is asserted.
> But on the other hand,
> (a) it's never been claimed that the Perfect tense
> (in Greek, at least) is
> a PAST tense; rather it is a PRESENT tense; the PAST
> tenses in the
> indicative are the imperfect, aorist, and
> pluperfect; some would argue that
> it is precisely the augment that these indicatives
> normally bear
> (pluperfects of more than a couple syllables are
> sometimes exceptions) that
> is the indication that they are past tenses--and the
> augment comes only on
> the indicative forms of these tenses.
>
> Unquestionably in your context your sentences refer
> to something that
> hasn't yet happened (and I'll warrant that you STILL
> haven't won the
> lottery!); your sentences express extreme
> confidence, assurance--some might
> call it the sheer folly of the addicted gambler--but
> they are statements of
> attitude, not of fact.
> --
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University
> (Emeritus)
> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828)
> 675-4243
> cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
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