[B-Greek] EK PISTEWS
Arie Dirkzwager
dirkzwager at pandora.be
Fri Apr 23 17:12:01 EDT 2004
Mark,
After writing my note, I have thought about the question.That occurs when you write down things you found long ago.
Perhaps there is a tiny difference after all.
EK PISTEWS speaks about a source the Jews should use, a source present, inherent to their position, but they should use it.
DIA PISTEWS speaks about a tunnel the gentiles should find.
So, in this way of looking at the problem, the Jews can use a thing already present and belonging to them.
The gentiles have to move, to find something that does not belong to them, but clearly open to them and then to move through that way.
Or is that too subtle?
Arie
Dr. A. Dirkzwager
Hoeselt, Belgium
e-mail dirkzwager at pandora.be
----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Van: Mark Lama
Aan: Arie Dirkzwager
CC: b-g
Verzonden: vrijdag 23 april 2004 22:48
Onderwerp: Re: [B-Greek] EK PISTEWS
What a coincidence! I was just pondering the interchance of EK PISTEWS and DIA THS PISTEWS in this passage earlier today. I am hesitant to attribute too much meaning to the interchange of two phrases so nearly identical in semantic content, an error in interpretation that has been discussed often enough before on this list. However, I can't help also picking up the sense here, not perhaps of open irony, but at least of a slight intentionality, as if Paul were placing six on one side and half a dozen on the other, with the idea, "It's faith either way, folks. That's the only way that a human being is justified." It comes close, to me, but is perhaps less overt, than saying something like, "hOS DIKAIWSEI PERITOMHN DIA THS PISTEWS, KAI AKROBUSTIAN DI' AUTHS THS PISTEWS."
A further note on EK PISTEWS, directed to Jody's first question: Your question seems in a large part to be a translation question--"How should I gloss this preposition in English"--but it also helps to try to think like a Greek, in Greek, irrespective of what English gloss you go with. Note that in comparing EK and DIA here, both prepositions are being used in metaphorical senses that are natural extensions of their originall spatial significance. That is, we are not speaking here of "out of" or "through" in a literal, i.e., spatial sense. Metaphorically, the most common usage of the two in the genitive is roughly "source, cause" and "means, cause", respectively. That is, I would give EK in EK PISTEWS in several passages a shade of the idea of source, and therefore basis. That does not mean that I do not think that the two phrases EK PISTEWS and DIA THS PISTEWS have roughly equal import in this passage.
CARIS KAI EIRHNH,
Mark Lama
Arie Dirkzwager <dirkzwager at pandora.be> wrote:
I agree with Harold.
I only read somewhere that Paul used some ironical humour here. Jews and
gentiles are both saved by faith, but if some people desire to be different,
they can get it: the Jews can get EK and the gentiles DIA.
It is not the only place where Paul uses the same kind of humour. Think of
the letter to the Colossians.
Dr. A. Dirkzwager
Hoeselt, Belgium
e-mail dirkzwager at pandora.be
----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Van: "Harold R. Holmyard III"
Aan:
Verzonden: donderdag 22 april 2004 19:33
Onderwerp: Re: [B-Greek] EK PISTEWS
Dear Jody,
>I'm looking for some guidance, particularly the
>translation and meaning of Paul's phrase EK PISTEWS.
>
>In Rom. 5:1 DIKAIWQENTES OUN EK PISTEWS should EK
>PISTEWS be translated 'by faith' 't hrough faith' 'from
>faith' 'because of faith' etc. What would you go for
>and why?
HH: "By faith" seems good, since "through' is
good for DIA. The UBS dictionary gives "from,"
"by", and "because" as possible with EK and the
genitive. BAGD treats "by" and "because of" as
more or less synonymous. The phrase EK PISTEWS
occurs in Rom 1:17; 3:26, 30; 4:16 (2 t.). The
use in 1:17 is helpful in that it quotes Hab 2:4,
which may favor an interpretation like "by.
>Also in Rom. 3:30 DIKAIWSEI PERITOMHN EK PISTEWS KAI
>AKROBUSTIAN DIA THS PISTEWS is there any difference in
>meaning intended between EK PISTEWS and DIA THS
>PISTEWS or do they mean roughly the same?
HH: I think they mean roughly the same thing.
Yours,
Harold Holmyard
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