[B-Greek] 2 Thess.1:12, POIMHN and DIDASKALOS
ann nyland
accuratebibles at ozemail.com.au
Wed Aug 4 22:56:35 EDT 2004
Hi Iver,
It looks like we agree. There does certainly appear to be lots of overlap
between the two terms, but not identity.
Iver says, > I appreciate your insight and knowledge of the papyrus texts.
Have you made
> similar research on the other words used in this verse? APOSTOLOS,
PROFHTHS,
> EUAGGELISTHS, POIMHN. Is it not possible or even likely that these words
> were used in a more specific, technical and biblical sense in the GNT than
> in general usage? In modern English there are many Biblical words that
> acquire a somewhat special sense when used in the Bible as compared to
usage
> in everyday language. It is the same for any technical vocabulary.
Ann: No, at the time the NT was written, such "technical" words appear to be
used in their everyday, ordinary sense, but of course this changed with
time. That is to say, there is no evidence that there was a special NT
vocabulary, despite (now well and truly discredited) efforts by Turner to
push this POV. Documentary lexicographical research has been done on the
words you mention, and they were words used commonly in the secular context.
(As you say, Rabbi was the one with religious context, which is to be
expected.)
Iver: "Yes, I meant the generic "he". The "new" English is not yet
sufficiently ingrained in my brain. By the way, are there examples of female
rabbis in the papyri about Jewish affairs? Or can't you tell because the
more general
word DIDASKALOS is used to translate rabbi?"
Ann: I am just glad I don't have to write in Danish! (Tho it is not so much
"new" English, just a return to the old English.) There is much evidence for
women synagogue leaders and teachers of the law.
Iver: "No, I have not read Foucault, and I cannot see any particular
connection between PARRHSIA and DIDASKALIA. Are you saying that the normal
understanding of PARRHSIA is mistaken?
L&N says about this word:
25.158 ... a state of boldness and confidence, sometimes implying
intimidating circumstances - 'boldness, courage.'
Liddell Scott has:
PARRHSIA .. freespokenness, openness, frankness, Eur.; 2. in bad sense,
licence of tongue, Isocr.
PARRHSIAZOMAI -to speak freely, openly, boldly, Plat., etc.
PARRHSIASTHS... a free speaker, Arist.;
PARRHSIASTIKOS freespoken, Arist."
Ann: My response was to your apparent linking of teaching with the declaring
of the truth. > > Iver: "2) Teaching is linked with authority, power (Acts
13:12) and
> > declaration of religious truth in the GNT."
Ann again: The above citations you provide are just ready glosses. PARRHSIA
is one of those words which really needs to be expressed by a definition
rather than a ready one word translation. PARRHSIA was an essential
characteristic of Athenian democracy and notably linked with truth telling
(often in a public situation, and often with the possibility of some danger
or loss to the speaker - such as a subject to a king, or even friend telling
an unwelcome truth to another friend thus putting the friendship at risk).
Speakers of PARRHSIA spoke the truth freely, boldly and openly because they
were good citizens, were well born, had a respectful relation to the city,
to the law, and to the truth. PARRHSIA constitutes pure frankness and truth
telling in speaking, even to the extent of ignorant outspokenness. PARRHSIA
expresses speaking the truth: the person who uses PARRHSIA says everything
on their mind: such a person does not hide anything.
Foucault went on at length about the "parrhesiastic contract". I quote:
"The sovereign, the one who has power but lacks the truth, addresses himself
to the one who has the truth but lacks power, and tells him: if you tell me
the truth, no matter what this truth turns out to be, you won't be punished;
and those who are responsible for any injustices will be punished, but not
those who speak the truth about such injustices. This idea of the
'Parrhesiastic contract' became associated with parresia as a special
privilege granted to the best and most honest citizens of the city."
Foucault had much to say about the connection between PARRHSIA and the
telling of the truth.
Ann Nyland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org>
To: "ann nyland" <accuratebibles at ozemail.com.au>;
<b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 5:47 PM
Subject: RE: [B-Greek] 2 Thess.1:12, POIMHN and DIDASKALOS
> >
> > The Greek suggests that POIMENAS and DIDASKALOUS are grouped
> > together, even
> > though they are not interchangeable terms. Just because we don't know
why
> > they are grouped together at this point in time, doesn't mean it isn't
so.
>
> As long as we agree that they are not interchangeable, that is fine. That
> was actually one of my main points. I see lots of overlap, but not
identity.
> All five terms are grouped together by being in the same list, and I am
> willing to accept a relatively greater overlap between the last two than
the
> others.
>
> > Someone could find an inscription tomorrow which will explain it.
> > Over 4,000
> > inscriptions have been discovered at Ephesos alone in the last 20 years.
> > Perhaps the Jewish context could be illuminating - synagogue leaders and
> > elders were classified also as teachers, cf. Epiphanius of Salamis,
> > Panarion, 30.18.2 (PG 41.436A); Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho,
137.
>
> Yes, I accept that there is considerable overlap between the terms you
> mention. Some if not all synagogue leaders and elders would also be
> instructing, but not all instructors were synagogue leaders. Elders can be
> used with different senses in secular and religious contexts, so the sense
> depends on context - as always, of course. In the Biblical context I would
> expect all teachers to be elders in the general sense of a respected
leader
> with considerable life experience, but not necessarily in the specific
sense
> of an elder in a local church. In a non-biblical context, you can have an
> instructor who is not an elder.
>
> There is good reason why the restricted Granville Sharp rule specifically
> excludes plurals and therefore does not apply to Eph 4:11. If a text
> described a single person as POIMHN KAI DIDASKALOS it is clear that both
> words describe the same person, even though each descriptive word
maintains
> its specific sense. But as soon as we get into plurals we have
theoretically
> three possibilities of membership in the overlapping of group A and group
B.
> 1) X belongs to A, but not to B (X may be a shepherd and not a teacher),
2)
> X belongs to both A and B (X is both a shepherd and teacher), and 3) X
> belongs to B, but not to A (X is a teacher and not a shepherd)
> So, if we say "some people are shepherds and teachers" that does not
> necessarily mean total overlap, i.e. number 2, but it could mean partial
> overlap, either 1, 2 or 3. It is similar to the many examples of the
> coordinated GRAMMATEIS KAI FARISAIOI.
> Not all scribes are Pharisees and not all Pharisees are scribes.
>
> > Iver: "Another problem is defining what a DIDASKALOS is."
> > Ann: There isn't a problem at all, there is an abundance of documentary
> > evidence for the meaning - teacher, instructor, one who is
> > accorded status,
> > and may be used as a term of respect. See IG VI.209.16 (Laconia, I BC)
> > "Eudaimokles son of Eudaimokles, teacher according to law'; P.Oxy
> > 41.2971.15
> > (Oxyrhynchos, 66 AD), "Herakles. carrying out all the
> > instructions given to
> > him by Seuthes. the boy being maintained and clothed by the instructor
> > Seuthes"; I.Eph. 7.2.43-40.9 (Ephesos, II AD), dedication to a teacher
by
> > her pupil, "Here lies Severa, Jacob's daughter, may she rest in
> > peace"; PSI
> > 8.871.13, (Oxyrhynchos, 66 AD), contract, "wishing that my son
> > Petechon, who
> > is not yet of age, be registered. so that he will be able to learn the
> > coppersmith's trade under the tradesman instructor Herakleides."; IG II2
> > 1.1.1028.39 (Athens, 100/99 BC), "they continued in harmony with and
> > obedient to the director and the instructors throughout the year"; CII
> > 2.1266.b.1 (Jerusalem, II BC - II AD), epitaph, "[Burial place] of
> > Theodotion, instructor"; FD 3.2.48.18 (Delphi, 97 BC), of players taking
> > part in the Pythian festival, "Agathokles son of Sokrates comic actor,
> > Ariston son of Menelaos tragic poet, Khairestatos son of Philagros
> > fellow-competitor, son of Poseidonios fellow competitor in tragedy, and
> > trainer of the great choir.". Aristophanes, Acharnians, 628,
> > uses it in the sense "producer" (of a play).
>
> I appreciate your insight and knowledge of the papyrus texts. Have you
made
> similar research on the other words used in this verse? APOSTOLOS,
PROFHTHS,
> EUAGGELISTHS, POIMHN. Is it not possible or even likely that these words
> were used in a more specific, technical and biblical sense in the GNT than
> in general usage? In modern English there are many Biblical words that
> acquire a somewhat special sense when used in the Bible as compared to
usage
> in everyday language. It is the same for any technical vocabulary.
>
> My point is that we cannot get a comprehensive understanding of the NT
sense
> of shepherd and teacher from one verse only. We need to look at the whole
> context of the NT church. It is from that context that I see two different
> aspects of the teaching ministry. For the pedagogical aspect of instructor
I
> would see a great overlap between shepherd and instructor. A shepherd is
> more or less equivalent to an elder in the NT, and elders are supposed to
be
> able to be good instructors. For the aspect of teaching ministry that
> involves guarding and expounding the true doctrine, I see much more
overlap
> between teacher and apostle than teacher and shepherd, notwithstanding the
> grammar of Eph 4:11. (Cf. 2 Tim 1,11 and James 3,1)
>
> I think that most people with a ministry in the NT church had a
combination
> of ministries, and I do believe that Jesus was all in one: apostle,
prophet,
> evangelist, shepherd and teacher.
>
> > Iver: "2) Teaching is linked with authority, power (Acts 13:12) and
> > declaration of religious truth in the GNT. A teacher was considered an
> > authority figure, because he had knowledge that others did not
> > have. Unlike
> > today in Western culture, it was a very high-status position in
> > society. The
> > title "teacher" was equivalent to "lord, master". The Greek DIDASKALOS
> > corresponds to the Hebrew Rabbi (John 1:38, 20:16). References: Mat
7:29,
> > 8:19, 9:11, 10:24, 23:8, Luk 9:38, 12:13, John 9:34, 13:13-14 etc."
> >
> > Ann: Do you mean the "he" as a generic he?
>
> Yes, I meant the generic "he". The "new" English is not yet sufficiently
> ingrained in my brain. By the way, are there examples of female rabbis in
> the papyri about Jewish affairs? Or can't you tell because the more
general
> word DIDASKALOS is used to translate rabbi?
>
> > Iver: "> 3) Teaching is considered as leading into truth or into
> > falsehood.
> > It is not concerned with pleasing people, but with speaking the truth."
>
> > Ann: Is it then linked with PARRHSIA in the NT? (I mean in its actual
> > meaning, not the way it has been glossed in English Bible versions.)
Have
> > you read Foucault on PARRHSIA?
>
> No, I have not read Foucault, and I cannot see any particular connection
> between PARRHSIA and DIDASKALIA. Are you saying that the normal
> understanding of PARRHSIA is mistaken?
> L&N says about this word:
> 25.158 ... a state of boldness and confidence, sometimes implying
> intimidating circumstances - 'boldness, courage.'
> Liddell Scott has:
> PARRHSIA .. freespokenness, openness, frankness, Eur.; 2. in bad sense,
> licence of tongue, Isocr.
> PARRHSIAZOMAI -to speak freely, openly, boldly, Plat., etc.
> PARRHSIASTHS... a free speaker, Arist.;
> PARRHSIASTIKOS freespoken, Arist.
>
> Iver Larsen
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