[B-Greek] 2 Thess.1:12, POIMHN and DIDASKALOS
ann nyland
accuratebibles at ozemail.com.au
Thu Aug 5 22:04:31 EDT 2004
Iver: "Lexicographers tend to
> put far too much meaning into the individual words and far too less into
the
> contextual implications."
Ann. Utter rubbish, Iver, but don't worry, I wasn't offended, and in fact I
did have a giggle at your statement, especially after you wrote, "it seems
to me from a linguistic point of view that you are overstating your case."
That is what I call an overstatement of a case, not to say a sweeping and
groundless generalisation based on a clear lack of understanding of the
field, viz., lexicography.
Iver: "The glosses given for the NT in LS indicate to
me
> how little these lexicographers have understood of the NT context."
Ann: Iver, the whole point about modern NT lexicography is that it is based
on the papyri and inscriptions. All published to-date lexica fall way short,
and much has been published lamenting this fact. Thus we are in agreement,
there is no point citing such lexica to me as you are preaching to the
choir. I agree!
Iver: (speaks about Foucault)
Ann: Iver, Foucault was a famous philosopher and not a lexicographer. I
mentioned him as I thought you might be interested to read him as you
suggested a connection between teaching and truth-telling. I was not trying
to make a point or argue a case, merely give you a helpful lead to a work in
which I thought you might be interested. At any rate, Foucault wrote at
great length on PARRHSIA. I cannot see how we can discuss his work as you
say you have not read it. I do not think there is much point in discussing a
topic with which you are not familiar.
Iver; (speaks of techncial terms and gives examlpes from outdated lexica).
Ann: Iver, you present a simplistic and generalised view of technical terms
in the N.T. Much research has been done on technical terms in the N.T.
(especially the ones which you cite) by noted lexicographers and this work
is freely available as it has been published in academic journals which are
published, freely available and peer-reviewed, not like the Wycliffe/SIL
in-house publications (which I am sure are also peer-reviewed, with
themselves as the peers) - that is to say, anyone can read this research. I
have done further work on these terms which is about to be published but I
am sure you will understand if I don't type out any more unpublished work
here.
Iver: "APOSTOLOS was used in the common language to mean "messenger, envoy,
ambassador", but when combined with CRISTOU or set in a Christian context,
it is coloured by that context and ought to be interpreted within that
context. (It is used in at least two rather different senses in the NT. Such
different senses are well known to translators since we often have to employ
completely different words for different senses)."
Ann: Iver, this is simplistic and skimming the surface, ignoring many
factors. The word means "envoy" - sure the office of Apostle became known
after the N.T., but the evidence suggests you are reading too much back into
the text from translation. Much work has been done on these terms (examining
every single instance of their occurrence in all pubpished papyri and
inscriptions as well as non-documentary evidence, with detailed commentary)
and whether they had a special sense at the time of the NT, it has been done
to death. Turner's stance was that there was a special meaning for NT
vocabulary, and his stance has been completely discredited, not to say,
ripped to shreds. This is also freely available for anyone to read in the
academic publications.
Iver. "Or take words like PNEUMA and hAGIOS. They have a range of everyday
senses, but taken together, they acquire a more specific sense in the Bible,
especially the NT."
Ann: Yes, and that is my point. They *acquire* a religious sense *after* the
N.T. times. This is, of course, aside from PNEUMA and hAGIOS together as a
personhood, although I am sure you are not arguing that personhoods are
technical terms.
Ann Nyland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org>
To: "ann nyland" <accuratebibles at ozemail.com.au>;
<b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 2:12 AM
Subject: RE: [B-Greek] 2 Thess.1:12, POIMHN and DIDASKALOS
>
> > Iver said about APOSTOLOS, PROFHTHS, EUAGGELISTHS, POIMHN:
> > Is it not possible or even likely that these words
> > were used in a more specific, technical and biblical sense in
> > the GNT than in general usage?
> >
> > Ann: No, at the time the NT was written, such "technical" words
> > appear to be
> > used in their everyday, ordinary sense, but of course this changed with
> > time. That is to say, there is no evidence that there was a special NT
> > vocabulary, despite (now well and truly discredited) efforts by Turner
to
> > push this POV. Documentary lexicographical research has been done on the
> > words you mention, and they were words used commonly in the
> > secular context.
>
> Although I think I am in general agreement, it seems to me from a
linguistic
> point of view that you are overstating your case.
> Technical vocabulary may employ borrowed words. I won't go into that. If
it
> is not borrowed, it develops in two stages. First, a word in common use is
> given a specific sense by the new context in which it is employed. Such
> words have both a general sense and a more specific, technical sense.
> Secondly, if the common sense is lost over time, only the technical sense
> remains.
> Any word must be and is interpreted in its context. Lexicographers tend to
> put far too much meaning into the individual words and far too less into
the
> contextual implications. Your quote from Foucault is a good example of
that,
> IMO. On the other hand, I accept that there is often a fuzzy borderline
> between what is communicated by the word in question and what is
> communicated by the other words in the context.
>
> Take a statement like "Please open another window." If this is spoken in a
> lecture hall, the "window" referred to is probably an actual window which
> lets in fresh air. However, if it spoken in a computer class where each
> student is sitting with their own computer following instructions, then
the
> "window" is probably used in a technical sense, thanks to Microsoft.
>
> APOSTOLOS was used in the common language to mean "messenger, envoy,
> ambassador", but when combined with CRISTOU or set in a Christian context,
> it is coloured by that context and ought to be interpreted within that
> context. (It is used in at least two rather different senses in the NT.
Such
> different senses are well known to translators since we often have to
employ
> completely different words for different senses).
>
> EUAGGELION has the following entry in LS:
> ... the reward of good tidings, given to the messenger, Od.; in pl.,
> EUAGGELIA QUEIN to make a thankoffering for good tidings, Xen., etc.;
> II. in Christian sense, the Glad Tidings, i.e. the Gospel (Saxon
> gode-spell), N.T.;
>
> Maybe the word is used in Hellenistic Greek to mean "good news" in
general?
> In any case, when used in the NT it does not refer to just any good news,
> but to good news of a specific type and content.
>
> On PROFHTHS LS says:
> ... one who speaks for a God and interprets his will to man, a prophet...
> 2. generally, an interpreter, declarer...
> II. in N.T.,
> 1. one who possesses the gift of PROFHTEIA, an inspired preacher and
> teacher.
> 2. the revealer of God's counsel for the future, a prophet (in the modern
> sense of the word), a predicter of future events.
>
> On PROFHTEIA LS says:
> ... the gift of interpreting the will of the gods, Orac. ap. Luc.
> II. in N.T., the gift of expounding scripture, of speaking and preaching.
>
> For these two words, I would agree that the NT sense is so close to the
> common sense, that there is no need to make it a technical term in that
time
> and culture. The only difference is whether the person is speaking on
behalf
> of God or some other gods. The glosses given for the NT in LS indicate to
me
> how little these lexicographers have understood of the NT context.
PROFETEIA
> has nothing to do with expounding Scripture or preaching, but everything
to
> do with speaking on behalf of God through the Holy Spirit. For the usage
of
> these words in the NT, Bauer and L&N are much better than LS.
>
> Or take words like PNEUMA and hAGIOS. They have a range of everyday
senses,
> but taken together, they acquire a more specific sense in the Bible,
> especially the NT.
>
> Iver Larsen
>
>
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