[B-Greek] Diagramming of Greek Sentences

Barry Hofstetter nebarry at verizon.net
Sun Dec 5 21:38:59 EST 2004


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steven Lo Vullo" <themelios at charter.net>
To: "Barry Hofstetter" <nebarry at verizon.net>
Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2004 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Diagramming of Greek Sentences


Let me first say that I am not arguing against diagramming: objectively 
speaking, I can see how it can be a valuable exercise, even though I personally 
have never found it helpful.  However, this discussion is related to our 
understanding of language in general and how that relates to reading Greek...

> On Dec 5, 2004, at 6:28 AM, Barry Hofstetter wrote:

>> An addict, huh?  You could "just say no..."  :)
>
> I don't think I have the strength. You'll have to pray for me. Or perhaps 
> organize an intervention. :-)

I'll organize an intervention, but only if you supply snacks and beverages.

>> Yes, but how often do you find it necessary to diagram an English sentence, 
>> and why would you bother to do so, apart from your 7th grade English 
>> teacher's insistence?  In our recent exchange, which of my sentences did you 
>> diagram in order better to see all the relationships in the sentence?

> I don't know of any literature in English that I hold in the same esteem as 
> the NT, and I don't know of any literature that I would write a commentary on 
> or prepare a sermon outline for, etc. In other words, there is nothing in 
> English that interests me enough to diagram, including your posts, as 
> interesting as they are. :-) I want to understand in as much detail as 
> possible how Koine works. I just don't have that curiosity about English, 
> though it is my native language.

Well, let me suggest that even if you did, you don't have to diagram English, 
because you think in that language.  When you read various English sentences, 
you don't have to diagram them really, because you intuitively know what the 
relationships of the part to the whole are.  Even in English class when one 
learns diagramming, it is simply an exercise to force the student to think 
logically about what he or she already knows intuitively, and to help the 
students find things like dangling modifiers and split infinitives so that they 
can learn to write proper (prescriptive) English.  I hear what you are saying 
about the high esteem in which you hold the NT literature (I am assuming that 
you might not take the same care with non-literary Koine or other Hellenistic 
literature), but even if you did hold some English literature that high, would 
you have to do so?

>>   I wonder if Paul or Matthew diagrammed sentences in the Hebrew Bible?
>
> First of all, I don't know if diagramming is that anciant. Who knows whether 
> they would have used it or not if they could have? [It's pretty well accepted 
> that diagramming Hebrew is not near as valuable as diagramming Greek; and 
> diagramming the Gospels is not near as valuable diagramming the Epistles.] At 
> any rate, if we followed this to its logical conclusion we would have to 
> wonder if they used a Hebrew lexicon, or a Hebrew concordance, like we do, and 
> if we should eschew such helps because they didn't have or use them. We would 
> have to ask whether or not they outlined the the texts for their sermons, and 
> if not, eschew that. We would have to say things like, "If Matthew or Paul 
> didn't use a computerized tagged Hebrew text why should we?" Different times, 
> different places. Diagramming is but one valuable tool in the study of the 
> Bible that Matthew and Paul didn't have. Whether or not they would have used 
> them is conjectural.

Good observations - I was being somewhat facetious in order to make the point. 
If we examine ancient exegetical procedures, we rarely see the ancients 
discussing grammar in the same way as we do today.  They simply read and 
attempted to understand and apply the Scriptures.  They would quote passages to 
prove their points, but rarely do we see them talking about the usage of a 
particular aorist or whether or not the prepositional phrase is used 
adjectivally or adverbially.  We see this about as often as we see people in 
English discussing grammar to interpret the meaning of a particular English 
statement.  Why is that?  Well, we know English -- the grammar is part of the 
structure of our thought, so to speak, so we don't have to discuss all that 
grammar stuff -- we just talk and write and assume that our hearers/readers will 
be sufficiently familiar with the language that they stand a good chance of 
properly decoding what we intend.  If they don't get it, what do we do?  Talk 
about grammar and semantic range?  Diagram the sentence for them?  No, we 
paraphrase what we've said until they get it right...  It was the same for the 
ancients, who habitually thought, spoke, and wrote in Greek even if they learned 
it as second language.

Now, that doesn't mean we can avoid talking about grammar -- we are distant from 
the context and thought world of the ancients, and the grammar of Greek is 
sufficiently different from English as to require quite a bit of attention.  But 
grammar is only the beginning of wisdom: we want to get to the point of true 
reading proficiency, or as Randall Buth said recently, we want to read, not just 
translate.  If Greek is taught as means of decoding the English translations we 
have (which is precisely the approach in many seminaries), then we'll never 
develop that proficiency.  The only way really to get good is to practice 
reading, and the only way to do that is to read lots of Greek, and not just the 
Greek of the NT.  We will never get the proficiency of native speakers, but I 
think we can do a lot better than is often accomplished.

If we reach this level, then our discussion of grammar will be a lot better 
informed.  I, and probably others as well, have had interaction with self-taught 
experts who have a lot of software -- they have software for grammar, software 
lexicons, and software that slices, dices, and cooks their Greek.  And yet, when 
they start taking the next step toward interpretation and application, they 
often get it wrong.  Why?  Because they have very little practice reading Greek. 
Finding rules in Wallace and looking up words in _____ [fill in favorite lexical 
resource] is just no substitute for knowing Greek through reading.  Essentially, 
they are trying to do the work, but they have no context in which they can 
properly use the grammatical rules they've read or the definitions they've 
referenced.

My argument, therefore, is not that the we shouldn't use tools such as lexicons 
or software because the ancients didn't have them -- if I were a Luddite, I 
wouldn't be writing this message, now would I?  My argument is that we should be 
so familiar with the language that the tools become nearly unnecessary, and when 
we do use them, we use them judiciously.  Take parsing: we shouldn't have to 
parse very time we see a verb, but the parsing should become so obvious to us 
that saying or writing out "3rd person singular aorist active indicative" is 
simply unnecessary, because to see the verb is automatically to know the 
parsing...

Well, sorry about the soapbox, but now I think I'll go and practice what I'm 
preaching with a bit of Xenophon or Epictetus...  :)

N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Adjunct Faculty, The Center for Urban Theological Studies
         Philadelphia, PA
http://www.cuts.edu
Adjunct Faculty, Reformed Theological Seminary
         Washington, D.C.
http://www.rts.edu/campuses/washington_dc/index.cfm

And me:
http://mysite.verizon.net/nebarry/

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opinions of the institutions listed above...





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