[B-Greek] Comparison of EIS with PROS

mrt mrt at hisurfer.net
Wed Jan 14 21:13:18 EST 2004


1/14/2004 5:14    dhoxworth at charter.net  Doug writes:
>then why use PROS instead of EIS? if they are perfectly synonymous here,
then why isn't only PROS or only EIS used? i just wonder what the basis is
for saying there isn't an ounce of difference or a basis for explaining why
the different prepositions are used and what the particular nuance is for
each (in general, and specifically in Eph 4:12). thanks for your help.

1/14/2004 3:22  AND:
> i'm curious here...why do you say that the burden of proof is on those who
want to say that there is some distinction between EIS and PROS here? to me
it seems pretty clear that the burden of proof is on those who say that
there is no distinction since they are, after all, different words.
________

Doug are you implying that because there are two different words in Greek
that there should be two different words in English?  The problem with Greek
words (or any language for that matter) that are synonyms, or at least at
times synonymous, is that they can often end up being translated with the
same word in the target language.

E.g. Let's look at "fish" in John 21.  There is (1) PROSFAGION (21:5); (2)
ICQUS (v.6, 8, 11), (3) OYARION (v.9, 10, 13). Respectively they generally
mean> (1) as meat (food), (2) referring to edible food often alive and still
in the water, (3) often already caught and cooked- intended as food.  Now
these are crude distinctions I made, perhaps they could be better refined.
Anyhow the point is that these are all "fish" and the distinction is lost,
however great or minute it was.  But still the translation of "fish" is fine
and I wouldn't want it any other way, because such a translation just
'flows,' for lack of a better term.

Now with our verse. Is there an ounce of difference (per Carl C.)?   Here
are some ways I rendered the passage:
to equip the saints for productive ministry, for building up of the body of
Christ

with a view towards/for the purpose of equipping...

In every case the idea is still purpose, whether with PROS or EIS in this
verse.  And there doesn't need to be a push to make PROS to look different
simply because they are 2 different words.  Such expansions as "with a view
towards" will probably never see the light of day in a modern translation (I
hope).  Like "fish" above I can understand the difference when reading
Greek.  It doesn't mean I should translate it into some kind of scholarly
jargon to bring this out.  Many times the distinctions are trifling and such
are never seen in translation.  But we can talk about them! :-)  I don't
know, perhaps I'll be proved wrong later, but the difference I see is only a
minnow.


Michael Tarver
Oregon, USA
<'\\><  laus Deo

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <dhoxworth at charter.net>
To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Comparison of EIS with PROS


> ><Carl>
> >Agreed, the most careful authors will be careful to preserve a
distinction between words with overlapping senses, but there are times when
an alternation may be nothing more than rhetorical variation; I wouldn't
want to argue that this (Eph 4:12) is an instance of rhetorical
inconcinnity--although it might be. At any rate, I'd say the burden of
demonstrating that PROS in Eph 4:12 means something OTHER than what EIS
means in the same verse must lie upon him/her who thinks that there IS such
a difference. You're asking what IS the difference; I'm saying that I DON'T
think there's any difference in this instance.
>
> <doug>
> i'm curious here...why do you say that the burden of proof is on those who
want to say that there is some distinction between EIS and PROS here? to me
it seems pretty clear that the burden of proof is on those who say that
there is no distinction since they are, after all, different words.
>
> Doug Hoxworth
> Seminary Student
> Pasco, Washington


----- Original Message ----- 

><Carl>
>It might have been easier if you'd indicated that in the first place:

<doug>
sorry. my question was specific but was really more general than just that
particular passage. i wanted to know in general, when not referring to
motion, whether there was any real distinction between using PROS as opposed
to (or in conjunction with) EIS.

><Carl>
>I don't think there's an ounce of difference between PROS and EIS in these
three instances: I'd translate them all into "for" in English and understand
them as indicating purpose.

<doug>
then why use PROS instead of EIS? if they are perfectly synonomous here,
then why isn't only PROS or only EIS used? i just wonder what the basis is
for saying there isn't an ounce of difference or a basis for explaining why
the different prepositions are used and what the particular nuance is for
each (in general, and specifically in Eph 4:12). thanks for your help.








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