[B-Greek] Comparison of EIS with PROS
mrt
mrt at hisurfer.net
Wed Jan 14 23:25:07 EST 2004
><Michael - that's me>
>Doug are you implying that because there are two different words in Greek
that there should be two different words in English?
<doug>
not necessarily. but i am thinking that they are different in the greek for
a particular reason. and in my mind, it must be a reason other than just
style...
><Michael>
Different uses of Grk. words does not imply a need for a special English
word to reflect it. Often the difference is squat :-) Along the same
lines, because I'm brainwashed, Zerwick and Wallace et al have demonstrated
that among many prepositions there is much overlap in meaning (during
Koine). All's I'm saying is that we don't need to reflect this with
different words when they are in fact overlapping at times. (cf. GGBB
pg.362)
<doug>
...otherwise we cannot explain why EIS is repeated.
><Michael>
re. prepositions By our time in the GNT there is a tendency for greater
explicitness. Where Classical used cases to express these functions, the
Hellenistic writers used prepositions. And they were quite liberal with
their use. (cf. also Zerwick's grammar §481)
><Philip> re. PROS vs. EIS
>So the point is not so much a distinction in the meaning of EIS and PROS
here, but in the semantic relationship(s) indicated. I would suggest that
the author switches prepositions not to indicate a change in meaning, but to
signal that EIS ERGON DIAKONIAS [and] EIS OIKODOMHN TOU SWMATOS TOU CRISTOU
are semantically subordinate to PROS TON KATARTISMON TWN hAGIWN.
<doug>
now that explaination has some merit. i would opt for a logical relationship
in the prepositions that each one might modify the other (e.g., PROS
modifies the verbal unit, while the next two EIS's modify the PROS
prepositional phrase. thanks philip.
><Michael>
Have you two been doing sentence diagraming lately? Philip may be correct
but lets not think Paul was thinking about syntactical diagraming. :-) :-)
Anyhow we may have missed something, I believe the following should be under
consideration....
Mike Sangrey writes:
>certain prepositions just don't "feel" right when used with certain words.
I've noticed when editing an email I'm writing, if I change a verb or
prepositional object I'll sometimes have to change a preposition which
interacts with it (or vice versa). I think we see this type of effect when
(say) EIS is used and the prepositional object is something like (say)
EISODOS. PROS might not feel right (thought I'm not sure).
________
I should have read this earlier I think it's an excellent observation. I
too sense the same gut feeling with PROS TON KATARTISMON TWN hGIWN etc.
Even before I read this! It just feels right to write it this way.
Unfortunately I'm not clever enough to say why PROS... EIS... EIS is best,
probably better stated as, Why PROS with that object? Maybe this can be
explained by something like: EIS/PROS tends to stand before words of/like...
Perhaps someone can respond to this.
Michael Tarver
Oregon, USA
<'\\>< laus Deo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Sangrey" <msangrey at BlueFeltHat.org>
To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: Re: [B-Greek] Comparison of EIS with PROS
> On Wed, 2004-01-14 at 18:21, dhoxworth at charter.net wrote:
> <snip>
> > then why use PROS instead of EIS? if they are perfectly synonomous
> > here, then why isn't only PROS or only EIS used? i just wonder what
> > the basis is for saying there isn't an ounce of difference or a basis
> > for explaining why the different prepositions are used and what the
> > particular nuance is for each (in general, and specifically in Eph
> > 4:12). thanks for your help.
>
> One thing to keep in mind when dealing with prepositions is that they do
> more than just "mean" something. They also perform a MARKING function.
> For example, Louw & Nida say "90.58 PROS: a marker of an experiencer of
> an event." What that ends up meaning (that is, the fact they do more
> than just "mean" something ends up meaning) in practice is that certain
> prepositions just don't "feel" right when used with certain words. I've
> noticed when editing an email I'm writing, if I change a verb or
> prepositional object I'll sometimes have to change a preposition which
> interacts with it (or vice versa). I think we see this type of effect
> when (say) EIS is used and the prepositional object is something like
> (say) EISODOS. PROS might not feel right (thought I'm not sure).
>
> I'm not proficient in Greek enough to know if what I say here as any
> relevancy to Eph 4:12 and I think it beneficial for anyone to try to
> compare the prepositions in order to better understand them.
>
> --
> Mike Sangrey
> msangrey at BlueFeltHat.org
> Landisburg, Pa.
> "The first one last wins."
> "A net of highly cohesive details reveals the truth."
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