[B-Greek] present participle in 1 tim 5:20

ronpt at comcast.net ronpt at comcast.net
Fri Jan 16 14:51:07 EST 2004


WEll, this may be deviating from the grammar, but I would like to ask about the mechanism for this.  Do you stand all elders that have sinned in the presence of two or three witnesses (wait...isn't that all of us everyday) before the congregation for public censure?  (I do think that this gets into public, flagrant sinning, but where does one draw the line)  Is this merely apostolic prerogative or something that is binding today?  Do we, or should we, do this for the sheep in the congregation as well, or do we just limit it to elders according to the strict reading of the passage?  I know that these questions are beyond the scope of this list, but I would appreciate hearing some views on this off-list.  PLEASE, DO NOT REPLY TO THE LIST.  Also, why is there no NT injunction for getting rid of the elder?  If he has sinned in such a manner as to be publicly humiliated, is he fit to lead?
How do you factor grace into all of this?

In Christ,

Ron Snider
> David:
> 
> I have to fight being too dogmatic at times, but I
> think I'm on safe ground by saying that in THIS
> passage there is no element of a "continuous idea"
> associated with TOUS hAMARTANONTAS. This seems pretty
> clearly referring to those elders that have in fact
> sinned; they must be rebuked before all. As a personal
> rule, whenever I run across a Present Tense anything,
> I do not see a "continuous idea" unless other
> contextual factors leave me no reasonable alternative.
> 
> Waldo
> 
> 
> --- David Wright <dkwbibgreek at nelmezzo.net> wrote:
> > I'm curious to hear opinions on the present
> > participle TOUS hAMARTANONTAS in 1 
> > Tim 5:20.
> > 
> > 1.  What is the significance of the present tense
> > here, given that this is a substantival 
> > use?
> > A.  Does the aspect of the present tense here imply
> > a continuous idea?  i.e., those 
> > who continue to sin
> > B.  Or if not, why not? i.e., it's merely: those who
> > sin
> > C.  Or is it not possible to tell?
> > 
> > 2.  Does anyone have any general guidance on aspect
> > in substantival participle?
> > I found this in Wallace's "Greek Grammar Beyond the
> > Basics" (I can't give the page, 
> > because my book is at home and I getting the quote
> > online, but it's from Wallace's 
> > chapter on participles):
> > 
> >     In particular when a participle is substantival,
> > its aspectual force is more 
> >     susceptible to reduction in force.
> > 
> >     Secondly, many substantival participles in the
> > NT are used in generic 
> >     utterances. The pa'" oJ ajkouvwn (or ajgapw'n,
> > poiw'n, etc.) formula is always 
> >     or almost always generic. As such it is expected
> > to involve a gnomic idea.7 
> >     Most of these instances involve the present
> > participle.8 But if they are already 
> >     gnomic, we would be 
> > 
> >     616
> > 
> >     hard-pressed to make something more out of
> > them-such as a progressive 
> >     idea. Thus, for example, in Matt 5:28, "everyone
> > who looks at a woman" (pa'" 
> >     oJ blevpwn gunai'ka) with lust in his heart does
> > not mean "continually 
> >     looking" or "habitually looking," any more than
> > four verses later "everyone 
> >     who divorces his wife" (pa'" oJ ajpoluvwn thVn
> > gunai'ka aujtou') means 
> >     "repeatedly divorces"! This is not to deny a
> > habitual Aktionsart in such 
> >     gnomic statements. But it is to say that caution
> > must be exercised. In the 
> >     least, we should be careful not to make
> > statements such as, "The present 
> >     participle blevpwn [in Matt 5:28] characterizes
> > the man by his act of 
> >     continued looking." This may well be the meaning
> > of the evangelist, but the 
> >     present participle, by itself, can hardly be
> > forced into this mold.
> > 
> > Does anyone care to elaborate or comment?
> > 
> > Thank you!
> > ==========================
> > David Wright
> > dkwbibgreek at nelmezzo.net
> > 
> > ---
> > B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
> > B-Greek mailing list
> > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> 
> 
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