[B-Greek] Conditionals in 1 Cor 13:8?
mrt
mrt at hisurfer.net
Mon Jan 19 18:50:12 EST 2004
Tim Crews writes:
I would like to see a discussion of the degree of conditionality that is
present in the original language in this verse. Based only on what I see in
the English translation, it seems to me that the context points to a
hypothetical situation being proposed, to make a rhetorical point as to the
supremacy of AGAPE over all of those other things. It does not necessarily
indicate the belief that tongues and prophecy would actually cease.
________
hH AGAPH OUDEPOTE PIPTEI. EITE DE PROFHTEIAI, KATARGHQHSONTAI. EITE GLWSSAI,
PAUSONTAI. EITE GNWSIS, KATARGHQHSETAI.
A few minor fixes can be made to your transliteration. For a detailed
transliteration scheme see:
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/transliteration.txt
EITE... EITE... EITE these are first class conditional clauses: if (there
are) prophecies... Or - whether (it be)... or... First class a.k.a. Assumed
True for the sake of argument. There are other descriptions for the first
class, but the others I seen are confusing. And note that Assumed True for
the Sake of Argument does not imply that there is an argument taking place.
Before we get into that let's examine the protasis/apodosis clauses.
Protasis is the "if" clause, e.g. if there are prophecies. The apodosis is
the "then" clause e.g. (then) they will be done away with. And this goes
for all three of them e.g. if there are tongues... etc.
The verbs, they are KATARGEW (passive), PAUW (middle), KATARGEW (passive) =
cease/pass away, stop/come to an end. Some individuals have made a big deal
out of the middle voice of PAUW, this is not necessary. (e.g.
"automatically cease of themselves" cf. GGBB pg.422 but see D.A. Carson,
Exegetical Fallacies 2nd. edition, pg. 76).
Now on the conditional elements, again the passage reads "if/whether there
are prophecies..." In this case the conditional elements are true, though
this is not true at all times for the First Class condition (e.g. Matt
12:26). But here, yes, there are prophecies, tongues, knowledge, however
they will each come to an end. The situation is not hypothetical, but
reality. We know those gifts existed from the context of 1 Corinthians etc.
Paul probably uses these Conditional clauses for rhetoric sake. It seems
more dramatic then saying: Love never fails, but prophecies will cease,
tongues will end, and so forth. At least it gets the listener more involved
with the discourse then stating the matter in simplistic forms. So when
Paul says: "if there are..." Here the elicited response may be something
like; "of course we know that there are prophecies, tongues, knowledge, but
now you're saying they'll cease? Ok that's news to us"
Now the answer to when all of this ends is in v.10 hOTAN DE ELQHi TO TELEION
(but when the perfect comes). Figure out TO TELEION and you will have your
answer on that.
I guess that's about it as far as the Grk. elements of the passage.
Michael Tarver
Oregon, USA
<'\\>< laus Deo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Crews" <tim-junk at crews-family.org>
To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 9:18 AM
Subject: [B-Greek] Conditionals in 1 Cor 13:8?
> Hello:
>
> I have been raised a cessationist (i.e., believing that the charismatic
> spiritual gifts such as tongues, healing, etc. have ceased). However, it
> does not seem to me that the Scriptures themselves give any hint that this
> cessation was to occur. I have seen only one verse used to justify the
> assertion that the authors of Scripture knew that these gifts would cease:
>
> 1 Cor 13:8
>
> H AGAPH OUDEPOTE PIPTEI. EITE DE PROYHTEIAI, KATARGHQHSONTAI EITE
GLWSSAI,
> PAUSONTAI EITE GNWSIS, KATARGHQESETAI.
>
> (That was my first attempt at a b-greek transliteration. Please point out
> any errors.)
>
> Although settling the Scriptural issue would not necessarily be decisive
or
> conclusive (since it is possible that information pertaining to cessation
> was simply not revealed to the authors of Scripture), I would like to
> discuss this verse anyway.
>
> I am a first-semester Koine Greek student. I have not yet reached a point
> in my studies where I can recognize anything other than "H", "AGAPE",
> "GLWSSAI", and "GNWSIS" in the above text. It seems to me, based on some
> English translations, that conditionals of some sort might be present in
the
> original language, but I doubt that the subtleties of the original meaning
> are present in the English translations. I would like to see a discussion
> of the degree of conditionality that is present in the original language
in
> this verse. Based only on what I see in the English translation, it seems
> to me that the context points to a hypothetical situation being proposed,
to
> make a rhetorical point as to the supremacy of AGAPE over all of those
other
> things. It does not necessarily indicate the belief that tongues and
> prophecy would actually cease.
>
>
> Thank you for your insight,
>
> Tim Crews
> Chandler, Arizona
>
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