[B-Greek] Rewrite of Mounce 2nd ed ch. 20 by Decker

bgreek at ntresources.com bgreek at ntresources.com
Thu Jan 22 08:56:11 EST 2004


> Putting Tense at the pragmatics level creates problems
> if you ask me. Under the assumption that Tense is not 
> grammaticalized, we should expect to see a far more even 
...
> I think Porter's attempt to address this is one of his 
> shortcomings. To argue for example that Past Events are 
> generally portrayed as completed is to equate Aktionsart with 
> Aspect. And to make a hard connection between how events 

Today is my heavy teaching day (6:30 AM to 12:30 PM, straight through--and
then I have a faculty meeting this afternoon... :( ), so I can't comment
just now (I'm 'passing through' between classes), but I will later. I think
these statements reflect some serious misunderstanding--or at least the use
of terminology in very different ways.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Rodney J. Decker, Th.D., Assoc. Professor/NT
Baptist Bible Seminary, Clarks Summit, PA, USA
URL: www.NTResources.com  
PURL: purl.oclc.org/NT_Resources/
Email: <rdecker> at <NTResources.com>
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: waldo slusher 
> [mailto:waldoslusher.at.yahoo.com at bgreek.at.ntresources.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 8:33 AM
> To: bgreek at ntresources.com; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: RE: [B-Greek] Rewrite of Mounce 2nd ed ch. 20 by Decker
> 
> 
> 
> --- bgreek at ntresources.com wrote:
> > > as less absolutistic than your statement that "In
> > Greek a
> > > verb form carries only the grammatical meaning of
> > aspect; it
> > > does not express time.  Greek uses deictic
> > indicators in the
> > > context, which, along with other pragmatic
> > factors, help us
> > > determine the writer's intended time reference."
> > > ...
> > > Your statement seems to imply that verb tense is
> > NOT a factor
> > > in establishing the temporal context, i.e., it is
> > totally
> > > irrelevant. Do you mean that?
> > 
> > Yes and no. The first statement is a *semantic*
> > statement regarding what
> > information is grammaticalized by the verb. Tense
> > *is* part of the complex
> > of contextual factors at the level of *pragmatics*
> > that is involved with
> > temporal reference. (Note the ref. to
> > deictic/pragmatic in the statement you
> > quoted above.) Confusing or ignoring the difference
> > between semantics and
> > pragmatics is one of the biggest problems in
> > discussing this issue. Those
> > who get "perturbed" when some of us challenge the
> > "prevailing wisdom" on the
> > subject rarely seem to make this distinction and
> > some who mention it don't
> > seem to understand the significance of it.
> 
> On this part:
> 
> Tense *is* part of the complex of contextual factors
> at the level of *pragmatics* that is involved with
> temporal reference. (Note the ref. to
> deictic/pragmatic in the statement you
> quoted above.)
> 
> This is Decker's comment. I'll ignore his final
> statement in the interests of making this an academic discussion.
> 
> Putting Tense at the pragmatics level creates problems
> if you ask me. Under the assumption that Tense is not 
> grammaticalized, we should expect to see a far more even 
> distribution of the various morphological endings in all the 
> various time segments, since events can be conceptualized as 
> perfective or imperfective (or
> intention) regardless of the Time they ACTUALLY occur.
> 
> 
> I think Porter's attempt to address this is one of his 
> shortcomings. To argue for example that Past Events are 
> generally portrayed as completed is to equate Aktionsart with 
> Aspect. And to make a hard connection between how events 
> occur and how they are portrayed is to argue for SOME 
> temporal element in morphological forms.
> 
> Would anyone argue that the Greeks do not have adverbs
> because they can be used as nouns sometimes?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> =====
> Waldo Slusher
> Calgary, AB
> 
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