[B-Greek] hUPOMONH in the Apocalypse
George F. Somsel
gfsomsel at juno.com
Tue Jun 1 22:07:18 EDT 2004
I wouldn't read 17.9 that way at all. It doesn't say that "This call for
a mind with wisdom" but rather "Here is a wise thought . . ." It
doesn't state that it requires wisdom to figure it out but tells you what
it signifies
hAI hEPTA KEFALAI hEPTA ORH ESTIN . . .
gfsomsel
________
On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 20:43:53 -0500 "Harold R. Holmyard III"
<hholmyard at ont.com> writes:
> Dear George,
>
> Iver has been helpful in pointing out the
> parallel usage of hWDE in Rev 13:18 and 17:9. I
> think Rev 17:9 is particularly clear in showing
> the force of the usage:
>
> Rev. 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom.
> The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the
> woman sitteth.
>
> HH: The phrase means something like "It takes
> wisdom to figure this out" or "the one who
> figures this out is wise." So the NIV translation
> seems good:
>
> Rev. 17:9 ¶ "This calls for a mind with wisdom.
> The seven heads are seven hills on which the
> woman sits.
>
> Yours,
> Harold Holmyard
>
>
>
>
>
> >On May 31, 2004 Iver Larsen wrote:
> >>
> >> hUPOMONH appears 21 times in the Apocalypse -- Re 1.9; 2.2, 3,
> 19;
> >> 3.10;13.10; and 14.12. It appears 96 times in the entire NT.
> Normally
> >> it is translated "patience, endurance, fortitude,
> steadfastness,
> >> perserverance." Note, however, Re 13.10
> >>
> >> EI TIS EIS AIXMALWSIAN,
> >> EIS AIXMALWSIAN hUPAGEI;
> >> EI TIS EN MAXAIRHi APOKTANQHNAI
> >> AUTON EN MAXAIRHi APOKTANQHNAI.
> >>
> >> hWDE ESTIN hH hUPOMONH KAI hH PISTIS TWN hAGIWN.
> >> and Re 14.12
> >>
> >> hWDE hH hUPOMONH TWN hAGIWN ESTIN, hOI THROUNTES TAS ENTOLAS TOU
> QEOU
> >KAI
> >> THN PISTIN IHSOU.
> >>
> >> In these verses this gloss does not seem to fit. It would
> appear that
> >> there is a sense which is different from and probably derived
> from the
> >> normal meaning. I would suggest that the author of the
> Apocalypse uses
> >> this word in the sense of "conviction, confession" or even
> "creed."
> >>
> >> Any thoughts? Does anyone agree that the meanings "patience,
> >endurance,
> >> etc." are inappropriate here?
> >>
> >> gfsomsel
> >
> >> Well, I cannot see how confession or creed could fit the
> context, and I
> >> don't seen any problem with "endurance". Maybe your problem is
> hWDE?
> >
> >> NET Bible has:
> >> 13:10: This requires steadfast endurance and faith from the
> saints.
> >> Their note on hWDE reads:
> >> "On hWDE here, BAGD 815 s.v. 2.b states: w. the local mng.
> weakened: in
> >this
> >> case, at this point, on this occasion, under these
> circumstances, in
> >this
> >> case moreover 1 Cor 4:2."
> >
> >> This special use of hWDE is also found in
> >
> > > Rev 13:18: This calls for wisdom.
> >> Rev 14:12: This requires the steadfast endurance of the saints.
> >> Rev 17:9: This requires a mind that has wisdom.
> >
> >> So, hWDE ESTIN is a short way of saying "this calls for" or
> "this
> >requires"
> >> or "here one needs to have" or "here it is important to have".
> >
> >> Iver Larsen
> >________
> >
> >I have seen the NET note concerning this and, pace D.B. Wallace, et
> al
> >involved with it, don't feel that it in any way solves the problem.
> Nor
> >do I feel that this is a correct understanding of the usage of hWDE
> in
> >this passage. Surely, had it been the intention to say that "This
> >requires" it would have been more likely that DEI would have been
> used.
> >I have the feeling that the committee involved with NET had no
> better
> >idea what to do with this than any other translation committee has
> had.
> >
> >gfsomsel
> >---
> >B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
> >B-Greek mailing list
> >B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> >http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
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>
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