[B-Greek] hUPOMONH in the Apocalypse

George F. Somsel gfsomsel at juno.com
Tue Jun 1 22:07:18 EDT 2004


I wouldn't read 17.9 that way at all.  It doesn't say that "This call for
a mind with wisdom" but rather "Here is a wise thought  . . ."  It
doesn't state that it requires wisdom to figure it out but tells you what
it signifies 

hAI hEPTA KEFALAI hEPTA ORH ESTIN . . .

gfsomsel
________

On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 20:43:53 -0500 "Harold R. Holmyard III"
<hholmyard at ont.com> writes:
> Dear George,
> 
> Iver has been helpful in pointing out the 
> parallel usage of hWDE in Rev 13:18 and 17:9. I 
> think Rev 17:9 is particularly clear in showing 
> the force of the usage:
> 
> Rev. 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. 
> The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the 
> woman sitteth.
> 
> HH: The phrase means something like "It takes 
> wisdom to figure this out" or "the one who 
> figures this out is wise." So the NIV translation 
> seems good:
> 
> Rev. 17:9 ¶  "This calls for a mind with wisdom. 
> The seven heads are seven hills on which the 
> woman sits.
> 
>                                 Yours,
>                                 Harold Holmyard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >On May 31, 2004 Iver Larsen wrote:
> >>
> >>  hUPOMONH appears 21 times in the Apocalypse -- Re 1.9; 2.2, 3, 
> 19;
> >>  3.10;13.10; and 14.12.  It appears 96 times in the entire NT.  
> Normally
> >>  it is translated "patience, endurance, fortitude, 
> steadfastness,
> >>  perserverance."   Note, however, Re 13.10
> >>
> >>  EI TIS EIS AIXMALWSIAN,
> >>  EIS AIXMALWSIAN hUPAGEI;
> >>  EI TIS EN MAXAIRHi APOKTANQHNAI
> >>  AUTON EN MAXAIRHi APOKTANQHNAI.
> >>
> >>  hWDE ESTIN hH hUPOMONH KAI hH PISTIS TWN hAGIWN.
> >>  and Re 14.12
> >>
> >>  hWDE hH hUPOMONH TWN hAGIWN ESTIN, hOI THROUNTES TAS ENTOLAS TOU 
> QEOU
> >KAI
> >>  THN PISTIN IHSOU.
> >>
> >>  In these verses this gloss does not seem to fit.  It would 
> appear that
> >>  there is a sense which is different from and probably derived 
> from the
> >>  normal meaning.  I would suggest that the author of the 
> Apocalypse uses
> >>  this word in the sense of "conviction, confession" or even 
> "creed."
> >>
> >>  Any thoughts?  Does anyone agree that the meanings "patience,
> >endurance,
> >>  etc." are inappropriate here?
> >>
> >>  gfsomsel
> >
> >>  Well, I cannot see how confession or creed could fit the 
> context, and I
> >>  don't seen any problem with "endurance". Maybe your problem is 
> hWDE?
> >
> >>  NET Bible has:
> >>  13:10: This requires steadfast endurance and faith from the 
> saints.
> >>  Their note on hWDE reads:
> >>  "On hWDE here, BAGD 815 s.v. 2.b states: w. the local mng. 
> weakened: in
> >this
> >>  case, at this point, on this occasion, under these 
> circumstances, in
> >this
> >>  case moreover 1 Cor 4:2."
> >
> >>  This special use of hWDE is also found in
> >
> >  > Rev 13:18: This calls for wisdom.
> >>  Rev 14:12: This requires the steadfast endurance of the saints.
> >>  Rev 17:9: This requires a mind that has wisdom.
> >
> >>  So, hWDE ESTIN is a short way of saying "this calls for" or 
> "this
> >requires"
> >>  or "here one needs to have" or "here it is important to have".
> >
> >>  Iver Larsen
> >________
> >
> >I have seen the NET note concerning this and, pace D.B. Wallace, et 
> al
> >involved with it, don't feel that it in any way solves the problem. 
>  Nor
> >do I feel that this is a correct understanding of the usage of hWDE 
> in
> >this passage.  Surely, had it been the intention to say that "This
> >requires" it would have been more likely that DEI would have been 
> used.
> >I have the feeling that the committee involved with NET had no 
> better
> >idea what to do with this than any other translation committee has 
> had.
> >
> >gfsomsel
> >---
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> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
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> 

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