[B-Greek] hUPOMONH in the Apocalypse

George F. Somsel gfsomsel at juno.com
Wed Jun 2 05:28:51 EDT 2004


We will simply have to disagree here.  I am not the least bit convinced
of your position.  Even should one grant that hWDE is used with the
significance of "calls for" or "requires" (which I don't grant), it still
does not follow that hUPOMONH is used for "endurance."  I was also
thinking of Jas 1.3

TO DOKIMON hUMWN THS PISTEWS KATERGAZETAI hUPOMONH

It has always seemed evident to me that even here "endurance" is an
inappropriate rendering of hUPOMONH.  It just as likely that TO DOKIMON .
. . THS PISTEWS would produce OLIGOYUXIA (?) [ > OLIGOYUXOS]
"discoragement."   It would be more true to say that the trial of one's
faith "requires" endurance though it is clearly stated that it produces
hUPOMONH.  What a trial of one's faith would produce is rather
"conviction" which is the opposite of James' ANHR DIYUXOS (Jas 1.8).

I detect your raised eyebrow and the backward tilt of your head when you
state, "There are very good reasons why all modern translations go the
way they have gone, even if it doesn't seem clear to you. Translators are
aware of how languages works and they rely quite a bit on context and
much less on individual words. I suppose one has to have had some
linguistic training to appreciate the point I am making here."  I can
assure you that I have a grounding in not only Greek but Hebrew, Aramaic,
Ugaritic, Akkadian and a few other languages -- modern as well as
ancient.  My inclination, however, is to rely upon empirical evidence
rather than upon some wooly-headed theory regarding how language
functions.  I fear that some of these theoreticians have gotten ingrown
hairs which have affected their thinking.  It is precisely the context to
which you appeal which causes the problem for the traditional
understanding of hUPOMONH.

Nor will an appeal to the supposed "heavy Semitic background" suffice. 
This seems the last refuge of those who fail to understand and wish to
obscure that fact.  The author of Revelation was not unskillful in his
use of Greek but on the contrary very adept.  Admittedly it gives the
appearance of being written by an author whose native tongue was Semitic.
 This is not the case.  Our author uses several devices which reveal his
ability though he has deliberately thrown dust in the eyes of the reader
to draw attention from himself as the true author.  It seems that this
dust has never come to earth but is still floating about -- particularly
in the studies of those who read this work. Note the catchwords QURA and
QRONOS in Re 3.20-21.  These are resumed in 4.1-2 thus linking the two
chapters together.  Note how He who sits upon the throne is described as
having IRIS KUKLOQEN TOU QRONOU.  Victorinus of Petau already observed
that this was the bow referenced in the flood account.  What is
interesting here is that he has used the word IRIS rather than TOCON as
does the LXX.  The reason for this change of word is that in 6.1-2 the
first of the Four Horsemen is described as having a TOCON where IRIS
could not be used.  Our author is thereby distinguishing God's "bow" from
the horseman's bow.  Note the play on BASTASAI in 2.2 and EBASTASAS in
2.3.  Our author enjoyed playing with words and was skillful at it.  This
is not the mark of someone who is barely able to communicate in the
language. 

Nor is it necessary [Ahem !] that DEI refer to the plan of God
specifically (though I do find that our author is very insistent that all
things occur by the decree of God).  If our author had meant to indicate
that "This calls for wisdom", he most certainly would have used DEI.  He
does, in fact, use DEI seven times (eight if you follow Byz, Scrivener,
Tisch, W & H on 13.10). 

You state "'here' means 'this place' and this is not far from 'now, at
this point in time'"  And "near" is "not here" which might be "afar."

gfsomsel
_________ 

On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 08:41:25 +0300 "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org>
writes:
> >
> > > This special use of hWDE is also found in
> >
> > > Rev 13:18: This calls for wisdom.
> > > Rev 14:12: This requires the steadfast endurance of the saints.
> > > Rev 17:9: This requires a mind that has wisdom.
> >
> > > So, hWDE ESTIN is a short way of saying "this calls for" or 
> "this
> > requires"
> > > or "here one needs to have" or "here it is important to have".
> >
> > > Iver Larsen
> > ________
> >
> > I have seen the NET note concerning this and, pace D.B. Wallace, 
> et al
> > involved with it, don't feel that it in any way solves the 
> problem.  Nor
> > do I feel that this is a correct understanding of the usage of 
> hWDE in
> > this passage.  Surely, had it been the intention to say that 
> "This
> > requires" it would have been more likely that DEI would have been 
> used.
> > I have the feeling that the committee involved with NET had no 
> better
> > idea what to do with this than any other translation committee has 
> had.
> >
> > gfsomsel
> 
> George, I am sure you are seeing a problem where there is no great 
> problem.
> Words like "this", "here" and "now" are closely related semantically 
> in that
> all are first person deictics. "here" means "this place" and this is 
> not far
> from "now, at this point in time" which is the meaning intended 
> here/in
> these places in Rev. As BAGD says the Greek hWDE can be used in a 
> way where
> the locative aspect is weakened to the extent that the more natural
> translation in English is "this". This may well be specific for 
> Revelation
> with its heavy Semitic background. (The Hebrew KoH can mean "here, 
> now,
> thus").
> There are very good reasons why all modern translations go the way 
> they have
> gone, even if it doesn't seem clear to you. Translators are aware of 
> how
> languages works and they rely quite a bit on context and much less 
> on
> individual words. I suppose one has to have had some linguistic 
> training to
> appreciate the point I am making here.
> 
> And surely, DEI would not work here. DEI is used for something that 
> has to
> happen and it is usually because of the plan of God that it must 
> happen. DEI
> would be inappropriate in 13:10, because the author is giving an 
> admonition
> or offering a suggestion to the reader, that if you want to 
> understand this
> properly you need to have wisdom, or if you are experiencing the 
> threats of
> captivity or even death, you need to have endurance and hang on to 
> your
> faith. That we can use "need to" in English does not mean that DEI 
> is
> appropriate in Greek.
> 
> Iver Larsen
> 
> 
> 

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