[B-Greek] Re: 1 Jn 2:5 hH AGAPH TOU QEOU

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Sat Jun 5 17:41:01 EDT 2004


At 2:56 PM -0500 6/5/04, Jon Boyd wrote:
>CAIREIN,
>
>This thread is an example of what makes B-greek so worthwhile--it stretches
>our thinking (thanks Carl, Iver, et. al.).  I'm specifically wondering about
>Carl's comment that "I am bewildered by the acrobatics engaged in by
>interpreters who want to see more in AGAPH TOU QEOU than in English "love of
>God" or in PISTIS IHSOU CRISTOU than in English "faith(fulness) of Jesus
>Christ. . . I honestly think it is silly to suppose that a Greek speaker or
>writer had any notion of a distinction between a subjective and an objective
>genitive any more than if we speak of "car care" we give any thought to how
>"car" functions in relationship to "care" in that phrase."
>
>I agree that Greek speakers didn't consciously think "I'm using a subjective
>genitive now."  Yet at the same time, wouldn't they have had a definite idea
>of what they were trying to communicate when they used a genitive
>construction (like AGAPH TOU QEOU)?  The phrase is ambiguous by itself, but
>in context wouldn't they have had a more specific idea?  I agree that
>Wallace makes this sound like the genitive has this "meaning," when it's the
>context that determines the semantics of the phrase.
>
>For example, look at 1 John 4:9-10:
>
>EN TOUTWi EFANERWQH hH AGAPH TOU QEOU EN hHMIN, hOTI TON hUION AUTOU TON
>MONOGENH APESTALKEN hO QEOS EIS TON KOSMON hINA ZHSWMEN DI' AUTOU. EN TOUTWi
>ESTIN hH AGAPH, OUC hOTI hHMEIS HGAPHKAMEN TON QEON ALL' hOTI AUTOS HGAPHSEN
>hHMAS KAI APESTEILEN TON hUION AUTOU hILASMON PERI TWN hAMARTIWN hHMWN.
>
>It looks to me like John is making the sense of hH AGAPH TOU QEOU explicit
>in v. 10 (OUC hOTI hHMEIS HGAPHKAMEN TON QEON ALL' hOTI AUTOS HGAPHSEN
>hHMAS), showing that he did have a distinction in mind.

Again I must respond, "not exactly." Yes, he is indicating that he is here
thinking of God's love toward humanity, but I don't think that means that
the phrase hH AGAPH TOU QEOU in and of itself in 1 Jn 4:9-10 carries that
semantic force--as you note, "the phrase is ambiguous by itself." Perhaps
what we're saying here is comparable to the argument (as propounded by
some, at any rate) about verbal aspect that a tense-form--even in the
indicative--does not convey any indication about temporal reference in and
of itself but only by virtue of its context.

>>One last question, if I may...
>>>Are you implying then that the fundamental semantic
>>categories a native Koine Greek reader/hearer would
>>have understood basically "fall under" your 3 main
>>categories (adnominal, partitive, ablative)? And from
>>these 3 main categories, a particular context might
>>bring out a slight nuance?
>
>Carl wrote:
>Not exactly; Koine Greek depends much more upon prepositions in combination
>with grammatical case-forms whereas earlier Greek much more commonly used
>the genitive case-forms by themselves to convey the distinctions I've noted.
>Nevertheless I confess that I am bewildered by the acrobatics engaged in by
>interpreters who want to see more in AGAPH TOU QEOU than in English "love of
>God" or in PISTIS IHSOU CRISTOU than in English
>"faith(fulness) of Jesus Christ." Sometimes the context may help to clarify
>whether in a particular instance the writer is concerned more with love
>directed toward God or with God's love for humanity, but I honestly think it
>is silly to suppose that a Greek speaker or writer had any notion of a
>distinction between a subjective and an objective genitive any more than if
>we speak of "car care" we give any thought to how "car" functions in
>relationship to "care" in that phrase.
>
>---
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-- 

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/



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