[B-Greek] Fw: EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS

virgil newkirk virgilsalvage1 at msn.com
Thu Jun 10 23:49:04 EDT 2004





 Dear George,

 Bear with me one more time, please.

 Again, the text:

 AUTOU GAR ESMEN POIHMA KTISQENTES EN CRISTWi IHSOU EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS OIS
 PROHTOIMASEN hO QEOS hINA EN AUTOIS PERIPATHSWMEN


 And let me restate again the problem that I an having with EPI being
 Englished as "to" "unto" or even as is found in the NIV.."to do". This
 one..., I really have a problem with Greek EPI meaning "to be doing"!

 Allow me to suggest firstly, that if any of the above be so; wouldn't we
 expect Paul to use EIS + accusative to indicate movement towards or into
 "works" ? This would be so easy..would it not ?
 Or..the infinitive which so clearly indicates purpose--wouldn't we expect
 that? That would so easily qualify as the basis for what the NIV supplies:
 founded in Christ Jesus--"to do" good works. Or as other translations
 suggest--moving onto..unto..for: good works.

 I suggest that for some reason, "AUTOU GAR ESMEN POIHMA" has been passed by
 too quickly and as a result, has skewed the understanding and hence, the
 representation of what the rest of the verse in it's Greek...means.
 What Paul has so specifically explained, and I would venture we all
 basically agree on, is that we, by verse 8, find ourselves actually in a
 state of salvation as is expressed by the perf. pass. ptcpl. SESWiSMENOI.
 It's now an established fact by the middle of verse 8.

 I contend that what follows is a further description ( Post SESWiSMENOI ) 
of
 that salvation and what it can now be described as being. It is Paul's
 stepping back and away from it so as to gain a broader and more specific
 look at it. And then he does just that.

 The last piece of information about it before we get to the purpose of it
 all; is EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS. Bear with me as I present more of all the
 context leading up to what I will argue is: the adverbial prepositional
 phrase EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS. Back to verse 8c. This salvation has been
 accessed by or through faith..it is not of ourselves..it is the gift of 
God.
 It is not existing as something that is characterized out of works;hINA MH
 TIS KAUCHSHTAI.

 GAR..the explanation of what it means that no one may boast.

 Keep in mind my suggestion this is a further description of something
 (salvation) already standing. What more is said of it ? AUTOU..as is
 characterized by what is "of" He Himself (emphatic) ESMEN we are existing 
as
 " a work " " a something that has been produced " Now, what can be said
 about this work..this something that has been made ? We "KTISQENTES" have
 experienced..received the action of a "founding..a being established".
 There's some verbalness for sure and if something more is desciptive of 
that
 it has to be adverbial... a prepositional phrase functions adverbally 
almost
 all the time and what we have that follows are not one, but two
 prepositional phrases that build upon one another to tell us the "how" of
 this founding or establishing. It is #1 EN CHRISTWi IHSOU and #2 the
 founding EN CHRISTWi IHSOU..the how of that is EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS. Now this
 can only indicate things that God has done and given. Surely a "founding" 
in
 Christ can only somehow be carried out in some real kind of way by 
God...and
 if that's so; the good works, that that action is EPI "on"  "on the basis
 of" is also something God has "worked". He is the good one here..not us.
 ( Paul picks up that thought right away again in verse 11 and expands on
 it...attempting to keep our focus and attitude in the right perspective.)

 In verse 10c Paul then supplies (the final purpose clause)...the grounds 
for
 something of purpose have now been laid. The purpose: Walk in this
 established thing that has just been so carefully described. And right away
 he keeps them close to what that "is not" by what he writes beginning in
 verse 11: remember that you were Nations in the flesh..etc.

The end result is that we have something more than what is in verse 8 to 
exult in...not boast about ! In verse 8; salvation, grace, faith and gift. 
By the end of verse 10 we are a Something. Specifically and intimately 
related to Christ and set into that which we are to walk in. And it was all 
..EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS   None of which were ours. However, now, that which 
has been brought about, is our call and responsibility to walk in it. I 
would say.

 In conclusion, some thoughts on prepositions and hence, prepositional
 phrases. If we move the meaning of EPI beyond the concept of rest on..over
 upon..on...on the basis of..against; then we might as well say it means
 "purple" too. Just because BDAG says under " #16 " #16 mind you, that it
 means a marker of object and purpose doesn't necessarily make it so any 
more
 than if Wallace says that there is a genitive of ( 33 of them ) doesn't 
make
 it so. Now it's a given that we need a number of entries to cover the 
implications of use with the different cases..yes.


 The "Greek's" prepositions came from physical relations to the world around
 them...can you picture one of them physically or even metaphysically
 employing EPI for going unto or to be doing something ? EIS or PROS would, 
but it doesn't seem to me that EPI can.

 No, I would say. They had other prepositions that easily and specifically
 expressed that.  Pros..EIS...+accusative
 They also had at their disposal--specific and efficient ways of expressing
 purpose by using the infinitive...hPWS and hINA clauses;
 EPI means something has arrived..it's there ! Consider if you will words
 that have EPI in compositon--the meaning is represented there too.
 EPIGINWSKW means after all,you are on it..you are all over it..you have
 really arrived at knowing; it's no longer theory, it's no longer concept
 only; you are there, you are on it.

 Do we really think that the Greeks has 18 (BDAG) of these things in their
 minds for something so basic that it means..."on".."over".."upon"..against 
?
 Dunbar and Bonar speak of EPI as signifying touching or pressing upon, and
 hence following upon. With the dative, close upon, depending upon, upon
 account of. With the accusative..motion directed upon, to ; also, for an

 Robertson says of EPI: Ground-Meaning. It is "upon" as opposed to hUPO. It
 differs from hUPER in that EPI implies a real resting upon, not merely 
over.
 Robertson goes on to say that the only safety is to hold on to the 
root-idea
 and working out from that in each special context.

 Even Wallace in his syntax summaries says of EPI+ dative:
 A.Spatial: on, upon, against, at, near.
 B.Temporal: at, at the time of, during
 C.Cause: on the basis of

 Even he doesn't take it any further...definitely not onto expressing
 purpose.

 The idea of the dative case is generally rest upon and so the affect of EPI
 would be to relate to and further give clarification or a
 further specific development of that idea.

 If we don't understand something the Greek says that doesn't mean we should
 stretch it out until it fits something we are able to get our minds and our
 pre-suppositions around....oh yes, I'm speaking to myself too ! And oh yes,
 I welcome your challenge and correction.

 Speaking of prepositions and their phrases; a few more thoughts which I
 believe also relate to this clause with it's two prepositional
 phrases..KTISQENTES EN CRISTWi IHSOU EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS. Winer says of
 prepositions: " The power of adverbs and prepositions, however, is confined
 to the limits of a simple proposition: " The structure, of this, they serve
 to complete." Prepositions denote only relations ( of substanitives.)

 I would extrapolate that out to our current consideration by saying EN
 CHRISTWi IHSOU completes the "something" about or the "how" of the KTISIS.
 The EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS does the same for KTISQENTES EN CRISTWi IHSOU. Now
 whatever that indicates is beside the point. The point is that EPI ERGOIS
 AGAQOIS, I would contend, has to construe with KTISQENTES EN CRISTWi IHSOU;
 it is adverbial. It tells us something more about the "how,"

 EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS cannot be separated from what it compliments and
 describes; which is what precedes it here. EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS is not 
standing in
 doing duty of an infinitive or a hINA clause...is it ? Can it ? What
 precedent would there be for this ? What grammar speaks of this ?


Further, it seems to me the more we stretch out these boundaries with more 
and more categories and sub-categories that we are going farther away from, 
not getting closer to "thinking" Greekly..I would say. We are taking away 
the specificity and the sharpness that the Greek is, that in fact prevents 
ambiguity. I don't believe that ultimately there is ambiguity in the Greek. 
There have been too many times now that something I would have never thought 
that I would give up or think differently about has been 
obliterated..smashed to pieces when confronted by the force that is 
contained in the clarity that is the Greek.



My testimony is that when that the above mentioned has happened; everytime: 
Christ has become more clear and real to me than ever, hINA I am desparate 
for more (of what the text really says and means) and hence more desparate 
to pursue this One I now see more clearly than ever before. And see more 
clealy my absolute need of connection with my neighbors in the Faith. This, 
is Christ. This is our inheritance in the saints, in each other. This is our 
hope. This is our pursuit.

Please excuse and allow this last comment even though it does not 
specifically relate to matters of B-Greek.



Virgil Newkirk
Salt Lake City, Utah


  ----- Original Message -----
> From: "George F. Somsel" <gfsomsel at juno.com>
> To: <virgilsalvage1 at msn.com>
> Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 4:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS
>
>
> >> Virgil,
> >>
> >> There are basically four uses of GAR:
> >>
> >> 1. Cause
> >> 2. Inference
> >> 3. Continuation
> >> 4. Explanation
> >>
> >> If we back up a bit to 2.4 (you did want context), we find the 
> >> statement
> >> that God has loved us while we were "dead."  In 2.7-10 we have a series
> >> of two sets of hINA . . . GAR in which the hINA introduces the purpose
> >> and GAR the explanation.  Thus this salvation if a gift of God (not 
> >> from
> >> works) in order that no one might boast.  Thus the GAR in 2.10 is used 
> >> to
> >> set forth the explanation of the preceding final clause hINA MH TIS
> >> KAUXHSHTAI "that no one might  boast."  Finally (pun intended), there 
> >> is
> >> another final clause introduced by hINA -- hINA EN AUTOIS PERIPATHSWMEN
> >> "that we might walk in them [ERGOIS AGAQOIS]."  This final Final Clause
> >> tells us which we must choose here:  It is purpose, goal or result.
> >>
> >> gfsomsel 



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