[B-Greek] Fw: EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS
virgil newkirk
virgilsalvage1 at msn.com
Thu Jun 10 23:49:04 EDT 2004
Dear George,
Bear with me one more time, please.
Again, the text:
AUTOU GAR ESMEN POIHMA KTISQENTES EN CRISTWi IHSOU EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS OIS
PROHTOIMASEN hO QEOS hINA EN AUTOIS PERIPATHSWMEN
And let me restate again the problem that I an having with EPI being
Englished as "to" "unto" or even as is found in the NIV.."to do". This
one..., I really have a problem with Greek EPI meaning "to be doing"!
Allow me to suggest firstly, that if any of the above be so; wouldn't we
expect Paul to use EIS + accusative to indicate movement towards or into
"works" ? This would be so easy..would it not ?
Or..the infinitive which so clearly indicates purpose--wouldn't we expect
that? That would so easily qualify as the basis for what the NIV supplies:
founded in Christ Jesus--"to do" good works. Or as other translations
suggest--moving onto..unto..for: good works.
I suggest that for some reason, "AUTOU GAR ESMEN POIHMA" has been passed by
too quickly and as a result, has skewed the understanding and hence, the
representation of what the rest of the verse in it's Greek...means.
What Paul has so specifically explained, and I would venture we all
basically agree on, is that we, by verse 8, find ourselves actually in a
state of salvation as is expressed by the perf. pass. ptcpl. SESWiSMENOI.
It's now an established fact by the middle of verse 8.
I contend that what follows is a further description ( Post SESWiSMENOI )
of
that salvation and what it can now be described as being. It is Paul's
stepping back and away from it so as to gain a broader and more specific
look at it. And then he does just that.
The last piece of information about it before we get to the purpose of it
all; is EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS. Bear with me as I present more of all the
context leading up to what I will argue is: the adverbial prepositional
phrase EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS. Back to verse 8c. This salvation has been
accessed by or through faith..it is not of ourselves..it is the gift of
God.
It is not existing as something that is characterized out of works;hINA MH
TIS KAUCHSHTAI.
GAR..the explanation of what it means that no one may boast.
Keep in mind my suggestion this is a further description of something
(salvation) already standing. What more is said of it ? AUTOU..as is
characterized by what is "of" He Himself (emphatic) ESMEN we are existing
as
" a work " " a something that has been produced " Now, what can be said
about this work..this something that has been made ? We "KTISQENTES" have
experienced..received the action of a "founding..a being established".
There's some verbalness for sure and if something more is desciptive of
that
it has to be adverbial... a prepositional phrase functions adverbally
almost
all the time and what we have that follows are not one, but two
prepositional phrases that build upon one another to tell us the "how" of
this founding or establishing. It is #1 EN CHRISTWi IHSOU and #2 the
founding EN CHRISTWi IHSOU..the how of that is EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS. Now this
can only indicate things that God has done and given. Surely a "founding"
in
Christ can only somehow be carried out in some real kind of way by
God...and
if that's so; the good works, that that action is EPI "on" "on the basis
of" is also something God has "worked". He is the good one here..not us.
( Paul picks up that thought right away again in verse 11 and expands on
it...attempting to keep our focus and attitude in the right perspective.)
In verse 10c Paul then supplies (the final purpose clause)...the grounds
for
something of purpose have now been laid. The purpose: Walk in this
established thing that has just been so carefully described. And right away
he keeps them close to what that "is not" by what he writes beginning in
verse 11: remember that you were Nations in the flesh..etc.
The end result is that we have something more than what is in verse 8 to
exult in...not boast about ! In verse 8; salvation, grace, faith and gift.
By the end of verse 10 we are a Something. Specifically and intimately
related to Christ and set into that which we are to walk in. And it was all
..EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS None of which were ours. However, now, that which
has been brought about, is our call and responsibility to walk in it. I
would say.
In conclusion, some thoughts on prepositions and hence, prepositional
phrases. If we move the meaning of EPI beyond the concept of rest on..over
upon..on...on the basis of..against; then we might as well say it means
"purple" too. Just because BDAG says under " #16 " #16 mind you, that it
means a marker of object and purpose doesn't necessarily make it so any
more
than if Wallace says that there is a genitive of ( 33 of them ) doesn't
make
it so. Now it's a given that we need a number of entries to cover the
implications of use with the different cases..yes.
The "Greek's" prepositions came from physical relations to the world around
them...can you picture one of them physically or even metaphysically
employing EPI for going unto or to be doing something ? EIS or PROS would,
but it doesn't seem to me that EPI can.
No, I would say. They had other prepositions that easily and specifically
expressed that. Pros..EIS...+accusative
They also had at their disposal--specific and efficient ways of expressing
purpose by using the infinitive...hPWS and hINA clauses;
EPI means something has arrived..it's there ! Consider if you will words
that have EPI in compositon--the meaning is represented there too.
EPIGINWSKW means after all,you are on it..you are all over it..you have
really arrived at knowing; it's no longer theory, it's no longer concept
only; you are there, you are on it.
Do we really think that the Greeks has 18 (BDAG) of these things in their
minds for something so basic that it means..."on".."over".."upon"..against
?
Dunbar and Bonar speak of EPI as signifying touching or pressing upon, and
hence following upon. With the dative, close upon, depending upon, upon
account of. With the accusative..motion directed upon, to ; also, for an
Robertson says of EPI: Ground-Meaning. It is "upon" as opposed to hUPO. It
differs from hUPER in that EPI implies a real resting upon, not merely
over.
Robertson goes on to say that the only safety is to hold on to the
root-idea
and working out from that in each special context.
Even Wallace in his syntax summaries says of EPI+ dative:
A.Spatial: on, upon, against, at, near.
B.Temporal: at, at the time of, during
C.Cause: on the basis of
Even he doesn't take it any further...definitely not onto expressing
purpose.
The idea of the dative case is generally rest upon and so the affect of EPI
would be to relate to and further give clarification or a
further specific development of that idea.
If we don't understand something the Greek says that doesn't mean we should
stretch it out until it fits something we are able to get our minds and our
pre-suppositions around....oh yes, I'm speaking to myself too ! And oh yes,
I welcome your challenge and correction.
Speaking of prepositions and their phrases; a few more thoughts which I
believe also relate to this clause with it's two prepositional
phrases..KTISQENTES EN CRISTWi IHSOU EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS. Winer says of
prepositions: " The power of adverbs and prepositions, however, is confined
to the limits of a simple proposition: " The structure, of this, they serve
to complete." Prepositions denote only relations ( of substanitives.)
I would extrapolate that out to our current consideration by saying EN
CHRISTWi IHSOU completes the "something" about or the "how" of the KTISIS.
The EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS does the same for KTISQENTES EN CRISTWi IHSOU. Now
whatever that indicates is beside the point. The point is that EPI ERGOIS
AGAQOIS, I would contend, has to construe with KTISQENTES EN CRISTWi IHSOU;
it is adverbial. It tells us something more about the "how,"
EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS cannot be separated from what it compliments and
describes; which is what precedes it here. EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS is not
standing in
doing duty of an infinitive or a hINA clause...is it ? Can it ? What
precedent would there be for this ? What grammar speaks of this ?
Further, it seems to me the more we stretch out these boundaries with more
and more categories and sub-categories that we are going farther away from,
not getting closer to "thinking" Greekly..I would say. We are taking away
the specificity and the sharpness that the Greek is, that in fact prevents
ambiguity. I don't believe that ultimately there is ambiguity in the Greek.
There have been too many times now that something I would have never thought
that I would give up or think differently about has been
obliterated..smashed to pieces when confronted by the force that is
contained in the clarity that is the Greek.
My testimony is that when that the above mentioned has happened; everytime:
Christ has become more clear and real to me than ever, hINA I am desparate
for more (of what the text really says and means) and hence more desparate
to pursue this One I now see more clearly than ever before. And see more
clealy my absolute need of connection with my neighbors in the Faith. This,
is Christ. This is our inheritance in the saints, in each other. This is our
hope. This is our pursuit.
Please excuse and allow this last comment even though it does not
specifically relate to matters of B-Greek.
Virgil Newkirk
Salt Lake City, Utah
----- Original Message -----
> From: "George F. Somsel" <gfsomsel at juno.com>
> To: <virgilsalvage1 at msn.com>
> Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 4:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS
>
>
> >> Virgil,
> >>
> >> There are basically four uses of GAR:
> >>
> >> 1. Cause
> >> 2. Inference
> >> 3. Continuation
> >> 4. Explanation
> >>
> >> If we back up a bit to 2.4 (you did want context), we find the
> >> statement
> >> that God has loved us while we were "dead." In 2.7-10 we have a series
> >> of two sets of hINA . . . GAR in which the hINA introduces the purpose
> >> and GAR the explanation. Thus this salvation if a gift of God (not
> >> from
> >> works) in order that no one might boast. Thus the GAR in 2.10 is used
> >> to
> >> set forth the explanation of the preceding final clause hINA MH TIS
> >> KAUXHSHTAI "that no one might boast." Finally (pun intended), there
> >> is
> >> another final clause introduced by hINA -- hINA EN AUTOIS PERIPATHSWMEN
> >> "that we might walk in them [ERGOIS AGAQOIS]." This final Final Clause
> >> tells us which we must choose here: It is purpose, goal or result.
> >>
> >> gfsomsel
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