[B-Greek] Fw: EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS
George F. Somsel
gfsomsel at juno.com
Sat Jun 12 03:21:49 EDT 2004
Sorry, Virgil, I don't understand you. I can only refer you to what I
previously stated.
gfsomsel
__________
On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:20:36 -0600 "virgil newkirk"
<virgilsalvage1 at msn.com> writes:
> George,
>
> Thank for the response.
>
> George, you said: " I would have problems with EPI being translated
> as "to
> do" myself. To be
> > fair to the NIV translators, it is, of course, not EPI which is
> being
> > translated as "to do" but EPI in conjunction with ERGOIS.
>
> Firstly, I would comment that I am not wanting this to be an "NIV"
> issue,
> and not that you are making it one either, George. I do think the
> NIV and
> some others went the furthest away from representing the Greek
> dative
> prepositional phrase, EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS, which having both the
> dative case
> and EPI in particular, have the basic and central precept of rest
> upon;
> (according to lexicon and grammar) but went on to English it as an
> infinitive of sorts, which gives it a verbalness. Other (virtually
> all)
> translations, that supply unto and for, similarly are indicating
> motion
> towards or to something not yet. This is not EPI + Dative, I would
> contend.
> Moving onto or to or towards something is plainly and basically EIS
> +
> Accusative. Even some sense of this can perhaps be found with EN +
> Dative.
> We don't have that here in Ephesians 2. We should not be looking
> forward,
> but back, to determine what this prepositional phrase is modifying;
> since it
> is EPI + the Dative case which signifies "on" in some
> sense...contact with.
> Again, both EPI and the dative case speak of something establised
> and
> set...not moving on, not still moving or about to be moving around
> so that
> it may or may not "land" on a particular place.
>
> Therefore...as I did a few weeks ago; I reject that notion found in
> the
> translations and am forced back into the text to answer the now
> present
> question of what is around here (in the text) that could be
> described by
> being "EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS" ? Fortunately I had some familiarity with
> this
> interesting word KTISIS which I have previously come to appreciate
> to
> mean...a founding, an establishing (a city for example), an
> organizing and
> putting into place, if you will. Something not very well
> represented, I
> would say, by what we normally think of nowadays when we see this
> word
> "create or created". As I thought this through, realizing that yes,
> in some
> kind of way; not that I have a very complete appreciation or
> realization of
> it; we have been founded or put into place EN CHRISTWi IHSOU. Then,
> I
> realized ! Of course..it's on good works ! Everything that God has
> done in
> Christ. Long list ! It surely has been determined that this all
> happened
> "not" on our works..verse 8&9. Notice..our works are not even
> referred to as
> "good" works.
>
> It is during that search that I noticed the word GAR and begin to
> realize
> that all of what is around here from the beginning of verse 10 has
> to be
> connected to AUTOU then. Of HE Himself; here we have the
> emphatically
> positioned personal pronoun he..in the Genitive case. Again, most of
> the
> translations take this away from the front page headline and make a
> 'his' a
> few pages back. This is not what the Genitive case indicates. This
> ESMEN..this; we are now having an existence is not merely a being
> 'his'..it
> is something that is of; is characterized "by" He Himself...that we
> are a
> product; a something that can be (according to Paul)..fairly and
> accurately
> modified by AUTOU. The Greek means we are a product, a work, a
> production of
> something of an AUTOU kind ! There is no way, that can make any
> sense
> without what Paul then supplies, contained in : KTISQENTES EN
> CHRISTWi IHSOU
> and there's no way that could have been accomplished by the One who
> put us
> there unless it was EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS. On..or on the basis of
> something
> that can, in reality and all fairness of truthfulness be adverbally
>
> described as-- on Good Works. All of the aforementioned is AUTOU !
> The rest
> of the verse goes on to point out very specifically that when we
> consider
> "our walk" (not our work)..as far as God, who before prepared these
> good
> works and what they have brought about, as far as He is concerned;
> we had
> better walk (not work) in them. Matters concerning "our" works comes
> much
> later; but first, verse 11 and further, reminds us what we are..or
> rather
> what we were and perhaps carries with it the suggestion of what we
> might
> re-unite with in experience...by being without God and the "work"
> that He
> has done for and on us. A small sample: ...having no hope, being
> without God
> in the world! In view of this, I would recommend us back to the text
> at
> hand.
>
> AUTOU GAR ESMEN POIHMA, KTISQENTES EN CHRISTWi IHSOU EPI ERGOIS
> AGAQOIS;
> OIS, PROHTOIMASEN hO QEOS, hINA EN AUTOIS PERIPATHSWMEN
>
> Now some are probably going to say at this point; what about works;
> what
> about James ? Well, that is like at the end of the movie "Gladiator"
> when
> Maximus's friend and former fellow slave, heading off to his
> homeland and
> his family, spoke, to the now passed into the great beyond Maximus,
> said, "
> someday I'll see you my friend...but not yet."
>
>
>
> Virgil Newkirk
> Salt Lake City, Utah
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "George F. Somsel" <gfsomsel at juno.com>
> To: <virgilsalvage1 at msn.com>
> Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 7:31 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Fw: EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS
>
>
> > Virgil,
> >
> > I would have problems with EPI being translated as "to do" myself.
> To be
> > fair to the NIV translators, it is, of course, not EPI which is
> being
> > translated as "to do" but EPI in conjunction with ERGOIS.
> Nevertheless I
> > prefer to be a bit more faithful to the structure of the original
> text.
> > Would we, as you state, "expect Paul to use EIS + accusative to
> indicate
> > movement towards or into 'works' ?" That is something which
> needs to be
> > checked. I do not favor simply taking statistics from the whole
> of a
> > literature or section of literature and applying them to a
> particular
> > author. It is necessary to see what the author himself does.
> There is
> > debate whether Ephesians was actually a Pauline epistle, but I
> leave that
> > aside. In this case we see
> >
> > 1 Thess 4.7
> >
> > OU GAR EKALESEN hHMAS hO QEOS EPI AKAQARSIAi ALL' EN hAGIASMWi
> >
> > This is particularly interesting since two different prepositions
> are
> > contrasted EPI - EN. "God did not call us FOR uncleanness, but
> IN
> > holiness."
> >
> > Then notice how the preposition EPI + Dat. is used in Acts 26.6
> >
> > KAI NUN EP' ELPIDI THS EIS TOUS PATERAS hHMWN EPAGGELIAS GENOMENHS
> hUPO
> > TOU QEOU hESTHKA KRINOMENOS
> >
> > And now I stand here on trial FOR HOPE in the promise made by God
> to our
> > fathers
> >
> > As BAGD states, "EP' ELPIDI gives the basis of the trial at law."
> This
> > hope is therefore is the cause of the trial.
> >
> > Therefore, Virgil, I agree that I would not translate Eph 2.10 as
> "to do
> > good works" though I cannot condemn it as totally wrong since if
> we are
> > "created in Christ FOR good works", this surely intends that we
> should DO
> > good works (indeed, does not the very word ERGON indicate
> something which
> > is done?).
> >
> > gfsomsel
> > ____________
> >
> > On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 21:49:04 -0600 "virgil newkirk"
> > <virgilsalvage1 at msn.com> writes:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear George,
> > >
> > > Bear with me one more time, please.
> > >
> > > Again, the text:
> > >
> > > AUTOU GAR ESMEN POIHMA KTISQENTES EN CRISTWi IHSOU EPI ERGOIS
> > > AGAQOIS OIS
> > > PROHTOIMASEN hO QEOS hINA EN AUTOIS PERIPATHSWMEN
> > >
> > >
> > > And let me restate again the problem that I an having with EPI
> > > being
> > > Englished as "to" "unto" or even as is found in the NIV.."to
> do".
> > > This
> > > one..., I really have a problem with Greek EPI meaning "to be
> > > doing"!
> > >
> > > Allow me to suggest firstly, that if any of the above be so;
> > > wouldn't we
> > > expect Paul to use EIS + accusative to indicate movement
> towards or
> > > into
> > > "works" ? This would be so easy..would it not ?
> > > Or..the infinitive which so clearly indicates purpose--wouldn't
> we
> > > expect
> > > that? That would so easily qualify as the basis for what the
> NIV
> > > supplies:
> > > founded in Christ Jesus--"to do" good works. Or as other
> > > translations
> > > suggest--moving onto..unto..for: good works.
> > >
> > > I suggest that for some reason, "AUTOU GAR ESMEN POIHMA" has
> been
> > > passed by
> > > too quickly and as a result, has skewed the understanding and
> > > hence, the
> > > representation of what the rest of the verse in it's
> > > Greek...means.
> > > What Paul has so specifically explained, and I would venture
> we
> > > all
> > > basically agree on, is that we, by verse 8, find ourselves
> actually
> > > in a
> > > state of salvation as is expressed by the perf. pass. ptcpl.
> > > SESWiSMENOI.
> > > It's now an established fact by the middle of verse 8.
> > >
> > > I contend that what follows is a further description ( Post
> > > SESWiSMENOI )
> > > of
> > > that salvation and what it can now be described as being. It
> is
> > > Paul's
> > > stepping back and away from it so as to gain a broader and
> more
> > > specific
> > > look at it. And then he does just that.
> > >
> > > The last piece of information about it before we get to the
> purpose
> > > of it
> > > all; is EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS. Bear with me as I present more of
> all
> > > the
> > > context leading up to what I will argue is: the adverbial
> > > prepositional
> > > phrase EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS. Back to verse 8c. This salvation
> has
> > > been
> > > accessed by or through faith..it is not of ourselves..it is
> the
> > > gift of
> > > God.
> > > It is not existing as something that is characterized out of> > >
works;hINA MH
> > > TIS KAUCHSHTAI.
> > >
> > > GAR..the explanation of what it means that no one may boast.
> > >
> > > Keep in mind my suggestion this is a further description of
> > > something
> > > (salvation) already standing. What more is said of it ?
> AUTOU..as
> > > is
> > > characterized by what is "of" He Himself (emphatic) ESMEN we
> are
> > > existing
> > > as
> > > " a work " " a something that has been produced " Now, what can
> be
> > > said
> > > about this work..this something that has been made ? We
> > > "KTISQENTES" have
> > > experienced..received the action of a "founding..a being
> > > established".
> > > There's some verbalness for sure and if something more is
> > > desciptive of
> > > that
> > > it has to be adverbial... a prepositional phrase functions
> > > adverbally
> > > almost
> > > all the time and what we have that follows are not one, but
> two
> > > prepositional phrases that build upon one another to tell us
> the
> > > "how" of
> > > this founding or establishing. It is #1 EN CHRISTWi IHSOU and
> #2
> > > the
> > > founding EN CHRISTWi IHSOU..the how of that is EPI ERGOIS
> AGAQOIS.
> > > Now this
> > > can only indicate things that God has done and given. Surely a
> > > "founding"
> > > in
> > > Christ can only somehow be carried out in some real kind of way
> by
> > >
> > > God...and
> > > if that's so; the good works, that that action is EPI "on" "on
> the
> > > basis
> > > of" is also something God has "worked". He is the good one
> > > here..not us.
> > > ( Paul picks up that thought right away again in verse 11 and
> > > expands on
> > > it...attempting to keep our focus and attitude in the right
> > > perspective.)
> > >
> > > In verse 10c Paul then supplies (the final purpose
> clause)...the
> > > grounds
> > > for
> > > something of purpose have now been laid. The purpose: Walk in
> this
> > > established thing that has just been so carefully described.
> And
> > > right away
> > > he keeps them close to what that "is not" by what he writes
> > > beginning in
> > > verse 11: remember that you were Nations in the flesh..etc.
> > >
> > > The end result is that we have something more than what is in
> verse
> > > 8 to
> > > exult in...not boast about ! In verse 8; salvation, grace, faith
> and
> > > gift.
> > > By the end of verse 10 we are a Something. Specifically and
> > > intimately
> > > related to Christ and set into that which we are to walk in. And
> it
> > > was all
> > > ..EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS None of which were ours. However, now,
> that
> > > which
> > > has been brought about, is our call and responsibility to walk
> in
> > > it. I
> > > would say.
> > >
> > > In conclusion, some thoughts on prepositions and hence,
> > > prepositional
> > > phrases. If we move the meaning of EPI beyond the concept of
> rest
> > > on..over
> > > upon..on...on the basis of..against; then we might as well say
> it
> > > means
> > > "purple" too. Just because BDAG says under " #16 " #16 mind
> you,
> > > that it
> > > means a marker of object and purpose doesn't necessarily make
> it so
> > > any
> > > more
> > > than if Wallace says that there is a genitive of ( 33 of them
> )
> > > doesn't
> > > make
> > > it so. Now it's a given that we need a number of entries to
> cover
> > > the
> > > implications of use with the different cases..yes.
> > >
> > >
> > > The "Greek's" prepositions came from physical relations to the
> > > world around
> > > them...can you picture one of them physically or even
> > > metaphysically
> > > employing EPI for going unto or to be doing something ? EIS or
> PROS
> > > would,
> > > but it doesn't seem to me that EPI can.
> > >
> > > No, I would say. They had other prepositions that easily and
> > > specifically
> > > expressed that. Pros..EIS...+accusative
> > > They also had at their disposal--specific and efficient ways
> of
> > > expressing
> > > purpose by using the infinitive...hPWS and hINA clauses;
> > > EPI means something has arrived..it's there ! Consider if you
> will
> > > words
> > > that have EPI in compositon--the meaning is represented there
> too.
> > > EPIGINWSKW means after all,you are on it..you are all over
> it..you
> > > have
> > > really arrived at knowing; it's no longer theory, it's no
> longer
> > > concept
> > > only; you are there, you are on it.
> > >
> > > Do we really think that the Greeks has 18 (BDAG) of these
> things in
> > > their
> > > minds for something so basic that it
> > > means..."on".."over".."upon"..against
> > > ?
> > > Dunbar and Bonar speak of EPI as signifying touching or
> pressing
> > > upon, and
> > > hence following upon. With the dative, close upon, depending
> upon,
> > > upon
> > > account of. With the accusative..motion directed upon, to ;
> also,
> > > for an
> > >
> > > Robertson says of EPI: Ground-Meaning. It is "upon" as opposed
> to
> > > hUPO. It
> > > differs from hUPER in that EPI implies a real resting upon,
> not
> > > merely
> > > over.
> > > Robertson goes on to say that the only safety is to hold on to
> the
> > >
> > > root-idea
> > > and working out from that in each special context.
> > >
> > > Even Wallace in his syntax summaries says of EPI+ dative:
> > > A.Spatial: on, upon, against, at, near.
> > > B.Temporal: at, at the time of, during
> > > C.Cause: on the basis of
> > >
> > > Even he doesn't take it any further...definitely not onto
> > > expressing
> > > purpose.
> > >
> > > The idea of the dative case is generally rest upon and so the
> > > affect of EPI
> > > would be to relate to and further give clarification or a
> > > further specific development of that idea.
> > >
> > > If we don't understand something the Greek says that doesn't
> mean we
> > > should
> > > stretch it out until it fits something we are able to get our
> minds
> > > and our
> > > pre-suppositions around....oh yes, I'm speaking to myself too !
> And
> > > oh yes,
> > > I welcome your challenge and correction.
> > >
> > > Speaking of prepositions and their phrases; a few more
> thoughts
> > > which I
> > > believe also relate to this clause with it's two prepositional
> > > phrases..KTISQENTES EN CRISTWi IHSOU EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS. Winer
> says
> > > of
> > > prepositions: " The power of adverbs and prepositions, however,
> is
> > > confined
> > > to the limits of a simple proposition: " The structure, of
> this,
> > > they serve
> > > to complete." Prepositions denote only relations ( of
> > > substanitives.)
> > >
> > > I would extrapolate that out to our current consideration by
> saying
> > > EN
> > > CHRISTWi IHSOU completes the "something" about or the "how" of
> the
> > > KTISIS.
> > > The EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS does the same for KTISQENTES EN CRISTWi
> > > IHSOU. Now
> > > whatever that indicates is beside the point. The point is that
> EPI
> > > ERGOIS
> > > AGAQOIS, I would contend, has to construe with KTISQENTES EN
> > > CRISTWi IHSOU;
> > > it is adverbial. It tells us something more about the "how,"
> > >
> > > EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS cannot be separated from what it
> compliments
> > > and
> > > describes; which is what precedes it here. EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS
> is
> > > not
> > > standing in
> > > doing duty of an infinitive or a hINA clause...is it ? Can it
> ?
> > > What
> > > precedent would there be for this ? What grammar speaks of this
> ?
> > >
> > >
> > > Further, it seems to me the more we stretch out these
> boundaries
> > > with more
> > > and more categories and sub-categories that we are going
> farther
> > > away from,
> > > not getting closer to "thinking" Greekly..I would say. We are
> taking
> > > away
> > > the specificity and the sharpness that the Greek is, that in
> fact
> > > prevents
> > > ambiguity. I don't believe that ultimately there is ambiguity in
> the
> > > Greek.
> > > There have been too many times now that something I would have
> never
> > > thought
> > > that I would give up or think differently about has been
> > > obliterated..smashed to pieces when confronted by the force that
> is
> > >
> > > contained in the clarity that is the Greek.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > My testimony is that when that the above mentioned has
> happened;
> > > everytime:
> > > Christ has become more clear and real to me than ever, hINA I
> am
> > > desparate
> > > for more (of what the text really says and means) and hence
> more
> > > desparate
> > > to pursue this One I now see more clearly than ever before. And
> see
> > > more
> > > clealy my absolute need of connection with my neighbors in the
> > > Faith. This,
> > > is Christ. This is our inheritance in the saints, in each
> other.
> > > This is our
> > > hope. This is our pursuit.
> > >
> > > Please excuse and allow this last comment even though it does
> not
> > > specifically relate to matters of B-Greek.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Virgil Newkirk
> > > Salt Lake City, Utah
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "George F. Somsel" <gfsomsel at juno.com>
> > > > To: <virgilsalvage1 at msn.com>
> > > > Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 4:42 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] EPI ERGOIS AGAQOIS
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >> Virgil,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> There are basically four uses of GAR:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 1. Cause
> > > > >> 2. Inference
> > > > >> 3. Continuation
> > > > >> 4. Explanation
> > > > >>
> > > > >> If we back up a bit to 2.4 (you did want context), we find
> the
> > >
> > > > >> statement
> > > > >> that God has loved us while we were "dead." In 2.7-10 we
> have
> > > a series
> > > > >> of two sets of hINA . . . GAR in which the hINA introduces
> the
> > > purpose
> > > > >> and GAR the explanation. Thus this salvation if a gift of
> God
> > > (not
> > > > >> from
> > > > >> works) in order that no one might boast. Thus the GAR in
> 2.10
> > > is used
> > > > >> to
> > > > >> set forth the explanation of the preceding final clause
> hINA MH
> > > TIS
> > > > >> KAUXHSHTAI "that no one might boast." Finally (pun
> intended),
> > > there
> > > > >> is
> > > > >> another final clause introduced by hINA -- hINA EN AUTOIS
> > > PERIPATHSWMEN
> > > > >> "that we might walk in them [ERGOIS AGAQOIS]." This final
> > > Final Clause
> > > > >> tells us which we must choose here: It is purpose, goal
> or
> > > result.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> gfsomsel
> > > ---
> > > B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
> > > B-Greek mailing list
> > > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
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