[B-Greek] John 3:16

newsgroupstuff at swiftdsl.com.au newsgroupstuff at swiftdsl.com.au
Fri Jun 18 07:33:17 EDT 2004


> > [1999]: 24-39). Though the term more frequently refers to 
> > the manner in which something is done (see BAGD 597-98 s.v.  
> > hOUTWS, the following clause involving hWSTE 
> > plus the indicative (which stresses actual, but [usually]
> > unexpected result) emphasizes the greatness of the gift  
> > God has given."

> The translation "so much" is not only misleading, it is 
> positively incorrect.  Thus dispite the fact that in every 
> other case it clearly indicates the manner in which something 
> occurs, some would have it mean "so much" simply because they 
> will it to be so.  Here, as in the other cases, hOUTWS means 
> "In this manner."
> 
> gfsomsel

Well, I guess I am an amateur at this, but I hope you don't mind me making
some comment.

I just skimmed through most of the occurances of hOUTWS in the NT. To my
mind, the vast majority certainly to refer to 'such a manner' or that kind
of translation. Even for those which BAGD refers to as 'to denote degree', I
think a case might be made that it still has a sense of 'such a manner' with
the context supplying the intensity, as there is usually some explanation of
'how much' to complete the 'so much' (cf Rev 16:18, Gal 3:3, Heb 12:21, 1
John 4:11). Even though in (modern?) English we often can use 'so' intensely
('I am _so_ afraid!'), it is almost like we should really also expect the
answer to the 'how much?' question ('How afraid are you?').

With regard to the idea of having an emphatic role, that seems to make
sense, since often when 'such a manner' is mentioned, it is because the
manner is noteworthy for some reason or other.

So maybe the 'so much' translation could be misleading in that it is
ambiguous whether it means 'a lot!' or whether it means 'such an amount', or
whether it should only mean 'such a manner'. However, when we consider the
whole verse I don't really think it is that big a deal.

If the hOUTWS is to barely mean 'such a manner', or the way in which God
loved, I am sure that the author did not intend merely to explain that love
in a technical way. He is saying that way God HGAPHSEN is very noteworthy.
And surely the noteworthyness of love will have to do with the degree and
extent? Indeed, TON hUION AUTOU TON MONOGENH EDWKEN. What is more, the
result is the difference between APOLHTAI and ZWHN AIWNION. This surely is
intended to express not just 'how' (= factually) God loved, but also 'how
much'. Surely we are meant to take note of the enormity of what God has done
in giving his only son? So ultimately, if we translate as 'so much', and
that helps the reader understand the intent of hOUTWS within the intent of
the whole sentence, is that really so misleading?

Or is there some other understanding of the text that is somehow facilitated
by hOUTWS as 'such a manner'?

As for below:

> Some have held that hOUTWS
> refers backwards to descriptive aspects 
> regarding God's love for the KOSMOS, while others (myself 
> included) believe that the more traditional view of hOUTWS 
> HGAPHSEN implying God's 'such great love" for the KOSMOS 
> takes the hWSTE clause as a result. I guess it amounts to two 
> views: (1) "THAT's how god
> loved the world, and so he sent   ... "; (2) God loved the 
> world to such an
> extent that he sent ..."

In option (1) "THAT's how God loved the world...", is "THAT" referring to
previous verses (say 3:13-15)? I've never considered that before.

Otherwise the two options as my comments above would be:

[A] "For God loved the world IN THIS WAY, that he..."
[B] "For God loved the world SO MUCH, that he..."

[A] has the text following hWSTE describing the way he loves. [B] has the
text following hWSTE as the result of God's love. However, as above, while
technically there may be some difference between description and result, is
there that much difference in the sense? When the subject is 'God loving'
isn't any description going to be the result of God's loving intent in any
case, not just some kind of incidental result?

Anyhow, maybe I am getting into too much theology outside the scope of
b-greek. I don't know.. I'm still new to the list :-) Please let me know if
I am going out of bounds! Also please let me know where my thinking on this
is off track!

Regards,

Craig Johnson
Brisbane, Australia 




More information about the B-Greek mailing list