[B-Greek] John 3:16
Iver Larsen
iver_larsen at sil.org
Sun Jun 20 01:19:37 EDT 2004
> Iver,
>
> Your concept of "unexpected or unusual results" puts too much
> significance upon hWSTE. Furthermore, I note that your quotations rely
> upon hWSTE + inf. In Jn 3.16 we do not have an infinitive. I think your
> discourse analysis attempts to overly analyze a passage and to place too
> much significance upon certain constructions. In your example of Mt
> 13.1-2, e.g. it is not to be stressed that there was such an amazing
> crowd that he had to get into a boat that hWSTE is used but a simple
> result. Naturally the result always follows from the *** sufficiency of
> the impetus *** (in this case the size of the crowd). But you use this
> to retroject totally exaggerated significance upon the main clause which
> I find unacceptable.
It was not my analysis. However, I think the analysis is correct and based
on careful research, but you are free to have your opinions. Since this may
be a new idea, it would be worthwhile to take some time to look up all the
passages and approach it with an open mind.
> But let us say that we accept your understanding of expressing
> "unexpected and unusual results" Even then you have not proven your
> contention that it is the degree of the love of God which is in question.
> I would say it is rather the TYPE of love which is here highlighted. I
> am not hereby suggesting any conception of a special significance for the
> verb AGAPAW. It is rather more in the nature of Paul's exclamation in
> Rom 5.7-8
>
> MOLIS GAR hUPER DIKAIOU TIS APOQANEITAI, hUPER GAR TOU AGAQOU TAXA TIS
> KAI TOLMAi APOQANEIN; SUNISTHSIN DE THN hEAUTOU AGAPHN EIS hHMAS hO QEOS,
> hOTI ETI hAMARTWLWN ONTWN hHMWN XRISTOS hUPER hHMWN APEQANEN.
>
> It is not the point of this pericope that the DEGREE of God's love is so
> great that he sent his son but rather that it is in the SITUATION of
> man's standing under judgment that God reveals his love to us in his Son.
To me, this is hair splitting. John 3:16 describes the kind of amazing,
sacrificial love God showed even for sinful human beings. It is type, manner
and degree, all in one, as the NET note says. Paul says in Rom 5 that this
kind of love is unexpected. It is a much greater and different kind of love
than you will normally encounter - even though the love of a parent for a
child can be self sacrificial.
> To read that "God loved the world thus (to use a neutral term)" and then
> encounter hWSTE and be required to go back to the beginning of the
> statement to adjust one's understanding so that it now becomes "God loved
> the world so much" is beyond belief.
But this is how communication works, believe it or not. It is like a puzzle
that is put together form many small pieces. The initial hOUTWS here in 3:16
is emphatic and kataphoric and serves to put emphasis on the following hWSTE
clause, so the flag is raised at the very beginning.
> It makes one stop to wonder "What
> if this love had been just a teeny, tiny bit less?" To be sure, the fact
> that God loved the world in its enmity to him speaks volumes for the
> DEGREE of his love, but this is not the question.
And why do you think that this is not the question?
I wouldn't mind translating it "God loved the world in such a(n amazing) way
that he gave his only...." or "God so loved the world that..."(KJV, NASB,
RSV, NRSV, REB, NIV, NLT). I think it is better everyday, modern English to
say "God loved the world so much that..." (TEV, CEV, NCV, JBP) - At least
that would be the case in Danish, except that we say "highly" rather than
"much". All of these are acceptable to me. My point was mainly to reject the
claim that the last option as used in several modern, idiomatic English
versions is wrong. Of course, I am talking here about idiomatic
translations, since that it is my area of work, not the literal type of
translations. Literal translations often fail to communicate the impact and
nuances of the Greek text.
Iver Larsen
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