[B-Greek] Hebrews 1:8
robert newman
rob at designceramics.co.uk
Wed Jun 30 19:24:44 EDT 2004
><Cindy Westfall>
>What I found most interesting about this is that in Hebrews, the first
person
>is typically used in OT quotations where God is speaking, but not for
the
>author (very unlike Paul) until 11:32 and then 13:18ff.
>However, when the quotation concerns angels in 1:6, 7 the third person
is
>used. The MEN...DE construction contrasts the angels as messengers and
the Son as
>a messenger in part by the use of direct address contrasting the level
of
>intimacy. Of course, this is not conclusive but it may be suggestive.
>Note that in v. 13, PROS is used in the context of direct address,
though it
>is semantically a negative statement--God did not say this directly to
the
>angels.
Rob>Thank you Cindy for your very helpful comment, the intimacy you
mention is very important to the passage
>Tony: Yes, the human king was addressed here as God. The term "God"
(Elohim;
>Heb) was applied to the king as the vice-regent of Yahweh. It was also
applied to angels in the MT in Ps.8:6. The LXX of >Ps.8:6 has the word
AGGELOUS. In Exod.22:28 (MT 27) "God" is applied to the judges.
Rob> How do you know that the king was being addressed? If there is a
way of resolving the verb less sentence of Ps45 it would really help
with Heb 1:8 My point was just that the translation of the Psalm has
similar difficulties. I'm already familiar with this use of the term
"God/god" but thanks for the reminder and also for educating me on the
author issue.
The correlative construction of Hebrews 1:7,8 lays out a contrast.
Vs 7 speaks about LEITOURGOUS "public ministers", "servants"
In contrast to that the Son has throne, scepter, and kingdom
The Expositor's Greek Testament said many years ago;
"It does not matter, therefore, whether we translate "Thy throne is God"
or "Thy throne, O God," for the point here to be affirmed is not that
the Messiah is Divine, but that He has a throne and everlasting
dominion."
The Interpreter's Bible also notes the contrast;
"[Hebrews 1]8-9. Thy throne....is for ever and ever (from Ps. 45:6-7) :
The sense in which the author uses this quotation is clear. It means for
him that the Son has divine authority in contrast to the subservient
role of the angels. As the opening words stand in our translations, they
require the application of [ho theos], "O God," to the Son. We have
noted that this epistle does not elsewhere give the name "God" to the
Son in this unrelieved fashion, and vs.9 would seem to suggest another
reading. The alternative is to read, "God is thy throne" or "thy throne
is God." The usual translation is not impossible, however, in a poetic
passage.(p.605-606) (as taken from the previously mentioned web page)
The previous quote says that "vs.9 would seem to suggest another
reading" vs 9 is part of the same quote (from Ps 45). DIA TOUTO ECRISEN
SE hO QEOS, hO QEOS SOU. It seems this can only be reconciled with the
vocative "O God" by means of theology.
I don't think it's possible to resolve this verse apart from theology.
As someone that enjoys the objectiveness of this list I have certainly
no intention of getting into a theological discussion, and I'm
comfortable with either a nominative or vocative rendering of QEOS here.
The two questions I posed (which are secondary to the initial question
posed by Mark) are entirely grammatical and have a direct bearing on the
verse. I enjoy the discussions here and I've learnt much from them.
Thanks for everyone's input, and look forward to comments on these
points that I raised?
1) Beduhn - "Forever" standing alone as a predicate phrase with the verb
"to be"
2) The Translator's NT - reading of AUTOU in Heb 1:8b demanding a
nominative translation of QEOS in Heb 1:8
Robert Newman
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