[B-Greek] 1 Peter 2:8b
Carl W. Conrad
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Mon Mar 22 06:22:48 EST 2004
At 9:40 AM +0100 3/22/04, Samuel Sais wrote:
>Carl,
>Thanks. I've the impression that you rather confirm my commentary. Another
>question would be the EIS hO construction. What do you think about it? I
>said that it could mean, following more or less BDAG, "as a...", but I
>suspect that behind this "translation" lies the final idea closer to the
>preposition figurative sense: "in order to be(come)".
EIS hO ETEQHSAN certainly means "to which end they were
appointed/ordained," but I'm not so sure that I'd specifically understand
this in terms of purpose; it should be remembered that the distinction
between purpose and result has more-or-less evanesced in the Koine so that
the constructions involving hOPWS + subj., hWSTE + inf, EIS + inf. (or
verbal noun) all are capable of bearing either a purpose sense ("in order
that X ...") or a result/consecutive sense ("with the result that X ...").
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
>To: "waldo slusher" <waldoslusher at yahoo.com>
>Cc: "Samuel Sais" <samuel at sais-cat.net>; "Biblical Greek"
><b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 3:41 AM
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] 1 Peter 2:8b
>
>
>At 3:50 PM -0800 3/21/04, waldo slusher wrote:
>>Samuel:
>>
>>For Dr. Conrad's views on the QH- forms all you need
>>to do is check the archives here or visit his web site
>>and check out his excellent article on the Middle
>>Voice.
>>
>>Something you will discover there is the QH- forms are
>>not generally passive in meaning, and one should
>>expect a middle sense if no agent is stated or
>>implied.
>
>That somewhat oversimplifies what I have argued, which is rather that the
>-QH- forms may bear either middle or passive meanings and that the
>particular verb in question and the context of usage in particular
>instances must be considered. I did at one time say that we should not
>assume a middle-passive form is passive unless it is clearly indicated by
>an agent construction or an indication of instrumentality but I would be
>more wary now and say that I think there are not infrequently instances
>where one may surmise an implicit agent or instrument. I think that is the
>case in he passage here under discussion.
>
>>That said, I would take exception to Dr. Conrad's
>>reply to this thread. The 2 examples he gave were
>>contexts in which agency is in the forefront. And
>>elsewhere Paul clearly tells us that he was appointed
>>BY GOD to his apostleship and as proclaimer of the
>>gospel.
>>
>>I think the foreordination of God is better seen in
>>other passages; not this one. Here in 1 Peter there is
>>no agent and I would leave it that way. It makes
>>perfect sense to keep the active-middle alliance in
>>this passage if you ask me. That is, since Peter tells
>>us that they were disobedient to the word, let that
>>action account for the consequences, not some unnamed
>>agent.
>
>Quite frankly I think that TIQHMI is a fully transitive verb--since it is a
>verb in everyday use it was very slow to shift over into Omega-conjugation
>and later conjugational paradigms-- it is one of the relatively few Greek
>verbs which have BOTH forms of the aorist: MHN/SO/TO and QHN/QHS/QH (in the
>great majority of verbs with presents in MAI/SAI/TAI there is only the
>-QHN/QHS/QH aorist); I think that if the author had intended the middle
>sense "to which they set themselves" he would have written EQENTO. I'm not
>concerned with what implications we see in this understanding of the
>grammatical construction, but I am concerned that we recognize this as a
>verb wherein EQESAN, EQENTO and ETEQHSAN represent three clear semantic
>voice distinctions. In contemporary American English ETEQHSAN means "they
>got appointed/assigned," NOT "they got themselves appointed/assigned."
>
>
>>--- Samuel Sais <samuel at sais-cat.net> wrote:
>>> In the GNT we find the form EQOU, EQETO, EQESQE,
>>> EQENTO from a supposed form EQEMHN.... for the
>>> middle voice, and ETEQH/N, ETEQHSAN from a supposed
>>> form ETEQHMHN... So, being that I'm not aware of Dr.
>>> Conrad's comments (sorry), and that the NT does
>>> distingish between the two forms, I'd say that the
>>> form ETEQHSAN is clearly a passive form. About
>>> TIQHMI with EIS, we learn from BDAG (TIQHMI b 5)
>>> that can be rendered as "to be put (to function) as
>>> a...". By the way, I'd be very aknowledged being
>>> informed about Dr. Conrad's comments (off-line of
>>> course) about this item.
>>> Thank you
>>>
>>> Samuel Sais
>>> Facultat de Teologia de Catalunya
>>> InstituciÛ BÌblica EvangËlica de Catalunya
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> KAI LIQOS PROSKOMMATOS KAI PETRA SKANDALOU. hOI
>>> PROSKOPTOUSIN TWi LOGWi APEIQOUNTES, EIS hO KAI
>>> ETEQHSAN
>>>
>>> The final phrase EIS hO KAI ETEQHSAN is of interest
>>> to
>>> me. After reading some of Dr. Conrad's comments
>>> regarding the QH- forms, it seems hugh how one takes
>>> this, either middle or passive in meaning. How does
>>> one go about deciding which sense is best taken
>>> here...middle or passive... on purely grammatical
>>> grounds?
>>>
>>> =====
>>> Mitch Larramore
>>> Spring Branch, Texas
>>> Student/Memorial High School
>>> ---
>>> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
>>> B-Greek mailing list
>>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>>
>>
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>
>--
>
>Carl W. Conrad
>Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
>1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
>cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
>WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>
>
>---
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--
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
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