[B-Greek] philip 3:12b 3rd class conditional?

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Wed Mar 24 08:56:14 EST 2004


I'm glad you have raised this question; unless I've missed it, I can't find
any discussion of it in Wallace, GGBB. The BDAG entry that I cited
previously (in message cited below) points to discussions in BDF §368 and
AT Robertson's big grammar, p. 1017. BDF's fuller discussion of Phil 3:12
is in §375; I'm going to cite it in full:

----------
"EI is used in expressions of expectation which accompany the action like
classical EI and EAN = Latin si (forte). It exhibits its relationship to
the EI in indirect questions in that it may also be strenthened by the
addition of ARA or ARAGE (aso with PWS Acts 27:12, Rom 1:10,11:14, Phil
3:11, in that it does not exclude the subjective (Mayser II 3, 54): DIWKW
EK KATALABW Phil 3:12 (cf. §368 and for the related MH, MHPOTE, MHPWS
'whether perhaps' §370). With Phil 3:12 cf. UPZ I 78.16 (159 BC)
EPOREUOMHN, hEWS KATALABW AUTAS (Mayser II 1, 270) in the light of §383(2).
1 Sam 4:1 PROSEUCESQAI ..., EAN PWS METANOHSWSIN. Also with the future
indicative: Acts 8:22 EI ARA AFEQHSETAI; with the optative s. §386 (2)."
----------

ATR does indeed discuss this in his treatment of third-class conditions
("Undetermined, but with Prospect of Determination." But I find a fuller
discussion of this (why am I not surprized?) in Smyth §2354, "EI, EAN, on
the chance that" under the general heading of "Variations from the Ordinary
forms and Meanings of Conditional Sentences" (§§2344-2368):
----------
"§2354. EI, EAN, on the chance that.--EI or EAN may set forth the motive
for the action or feeling expressed by the apodosis, and with the force of
on the chance that, in case that, in the hope that, if haply.

After primary tenses in the apodosis, we have ei with the indicative or
ea_n (pôs) with the subjunctive; after secondary tenses, ei with the
optative or, occasionally, ea_n (pôs) with the subjunctive. Homer has
sometimes the optative after primary tenses. The reference is to the future
as in final clauses.

The protasis here depends, not on the apodosis proper, but on the idea of
purpose or desire suggested by the thought. The accomplishment of the
purpose may be desired or not desired, and by the subject either of the
apodosis or of the protasis.

nun aut' encheiêi peirêsomai, ai ke tuchômi but now I will make trial with
my spear on the chance (in the hope) that I may hit thee E279, akouson kai
emou, ean soi eti tauta dokêi listen to me too on the chance (in the hope)
that you may still have the same opinion P. R. 358b, poreuomenoi es tên
Asian hôs basilea_, ei pôs peiseian auton going into Asia to the king in
the hope that somehow they might persuade him T. 2.67 , pros tên polin, ei
epiboêthoien, echôroun they advanced toward the city on the chance that
they (the citizens) should make a sally 6. 100.

N.--This use is to be distinguished from that of ei ara if perchance, ei mê
ara unless perchance (often ironical)."
----------

At 6:13 PM -0800 3/23/04, john umland wrote:
>now that i'm home thanks for pointing me to BDAG. i
>have BAG which is the same as the entry you gave. i am
>confused by the New International Greek Testament
>Commentary by Peter T. O'Brien who says, "EI KAI
>KATALABW (lit. 'if indeed I may lay hold of') is a
>similar grammatical construction to EI PWS etc of v.
>11, with the EI (which has been repeated and
>emphasized by the KAI) introducing a conditional
>clause of expectation. As F.F. Bruce observes, it is
>almost equivalent to a purpose clause, and may be
>paraphrased: '[I still press on] so as to lay hold
>of'." (NIGTC 1991, p.424) Are he and Bruce saying the
>same thing as Danker or something different? His
>translation is "No! I still press on so as to grasp
>[it] becasue I was indeed grasped by Christ."
>The Word Biblical Commentary 1983 by Gerald Hawthorne
>translates "But I keep pressing on to see whether I
>might apprehend Christ Jesus, inasmuch as I was indeed
>apprehended by him." (p.148) This seems more in line
>with what Bauer offers. They do seem different to me.
>God is good
>John Umland
>--- "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
>wrote:
>> Surprising--but it seems to me that ATR clearly
>> enough indicates that this
>> isn't REALLY a conditional construction: DIWKW is
>> not an apodosis and the
>> EI clause really does function to indicate the
>> author's reason or intention
>> for "pressing on" (DIWKW). I suppose one might say
>> that there's a
>> suppresssed apodosis and that what's implicit here
>> is something like, DIWKW
>> DE: EI KAI KATALABW (EKEINO) EF' hWi KATELHFQHN ...,
>> SPOUDAZW EKEINO
>> KATALABEIN. "If ever I am to get a grip on that for
>> which I was myself
>> gripped, I am eager to get a grip on it."
>>
>> At 10:58 AM -0800 3/23/04, john umland wrote:
>> >If so be that ei (NT:1487) kai (NT:2532). "I follow
>> >after." The condition (third class, ei (NT:1487)
>> ...
>> >katalaboo (NT:2638), second aorist active
>> subjunctive
>> >of katalambanoo (NT:2638)) is really a sort of
>> purpose
>> >clause or aim. There are plenty of examples in the
>> >Koine of the use of ei (NT:1487) and the
>> subjunctive
>> >as here (Robertson, Grammar, p. 1017), "if I also
>> may
>> >lay hold of that for which ef' (NT:1909) hoo
>> >(NT:3739), purpose expressed by epi (NT:1909) I was
>> >laid hold of kateleemftheen (NT:2638), first aorist
>> >passive of the same verb katalambanoo (NT:2638) by
>> >Christ Jesus." His conversion was the beginning,
>> not
>> >the end of the chase.
>> >(from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New
>> Testament,
>> >Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997 by
>> Biblesoft &
>> >Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament.
>> >Copyright (c) 1985 by Broadman Press)
>> >
>> >--- "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
>> >wrote:
>> >> At 7:46 AM -0800 3/23/04, john umland wrote:
>> >> >DIWKW DE EI KAI KATALABW EF hW KAI KATELHMFQHN
>> hUPO
>> >> >CRISTOU
>> >> >
>> >> >i read that this is a third class conditional
>> >> although
>> >> >it is not EAN + subjunctive but EI + subj. Can
>> >> >KATELHMFQHN be taken as the protasis and
>> KATALABW
>> >> as
>> >> >the apodosis? Robertson and Bruce call this a
>> >> purpose
>> >> >clause. How so?
>> >>
>> >> Where did you read that? I don't think that DIWKW
>> is
>> >> the apodosis of a
>> >> conditional construction but rather than the EI +
>> >> subjunctive clause here
>> >> is an indirect question--and that is what we find
>> in
>> >> BDAG s.v. EI 5.b.beta:
>> >>
>> >> "w. subj. DIWKW EI KAI KATALABW I press on (to
>> see)
>> >> whether I can capture
>> >> Phil 3:12 (B-D-F §368; 375; Rob. 1017)."
>> >> --
>> >>
>> >> Carl W. Conrad
>> >> Department of Classics, Washington University
>> >> (Emeritus)
>> >> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828)
>> >> 675-4243
>> >> cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
>> >> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>> >
>> >
>> >John Umland
>> >
>> >=====
>> >God is good
>> >john p umland
>> >
>> >__________________________________
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>> >---
>> >B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
>> >B-Greek mailing list
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>>
>> --
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University
>> (Emeritus)
>> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828)
>> 675-4243
>> cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
>> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>
>
>=====
>God is good
>john p umland
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
>http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
>---
>B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
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-- 

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/



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