[B-Greek] Acts 16,3 FOLLOW UP
Carl W. Conrad
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Tue Mar 30 11:53:45 EST 2004
At 8:57 AM -0600 3/30/04, Martin Culy wrote:
>The point of the note in Culy/Parsons was not to credit Wallace with
>inventing the category ("does not warrant another syntactic category" may
>have been more appropriate language). On the appropriateness of the category
>"causative active" in this particular instance, I would simply add that all
>languages characteristically leave certain information implicit. The fact
>that the "executive" or actual agent is left implicit here has nothing
>syntactically to do with the voice of the verb, though such information
>cannot be left implicit with middle or passive verbs. Moreover, Greek has
>ways of forming causative constructions, such as through the use of the verb
>DIDWMI plus and infinitive. In the note on Acts 16:3, Mike Parsons and I
>were attempting to urge Greek scholars to guard against creating categories
>to account for non-syntactic phenomenon. That the "causative active" has a
>longer history than we implied does not validate it as a syntactic category.
If that was the intent of the note, well and good. My impression is that
Smyth and Robertson and Cooper have called specific attention to this not
so much as a distinct "syntactic category" but rather as a usage of which
interpreters of Greek texts need to be aware--readers coming upon
phraseology like that of Acts 16:3 seem to need that assistance. I would
say the same of the "categories"of the so-called "subjective genitive" and
"objective genitive"--I don't think that the Greek speaker or writer ever
thought phrases so-termed other than as normal collocations of genitive
substantives with other substantives. Very often the "categories" in a
grammar are formulated to assist readers/interpreters to convey the
original language's expressions into a target language more than to
describe simply the usage of the original language in its own terms. The
note in Culy/Parsons did seem to me to imply that Wallace had invented the
term "causative active."
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Carl W. Conrad [mailto:cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu]
>Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 4:54 AM
>To: Eddie Mishoe
>Cc: Carl W. Conrad; B Greek
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Acts 16,3 FOLLOW UP
>
>
>At 6:43 PM -0800 3/29/04, Eddie Mishoe wrote:
>>Dr. Conrad:
>>
>>Parsons/Culy do not seem to approve of Wallace's
>>syntactical category "causative active," (here?)
>>although they are in agreement that Paul did not
>>actually perform the circumcision.
>>
>>Given that it is not uncommon for active verbs to bear
>>a causative sense, is there anything grammatically
>>speaking in this text that leads you to see a
>>causative sense? (My assumption is that a causative
>>sense is seen here by most commentators due to the
>>assumed awkwardness of Paul, rather than a physician
>>or Timothy himself, circumcising Timothy.)
>
>While Wallace has postulated some grammatical constructions as
>subcategories for analytical purposes, subcategories that I think are
>superfluous, the causative sense of the active verb is one that I don't
>find problematic (I pointed out Smyth §1711 in my earlier note)--this is
>NOT a "new syntactic category" invented by Wallace. the Parsons/Culy
>argument appears to me to be an instance of "having one's cake and eating
>it too"--they somehow feel Paul didn't himself perform the action, yet they
>object to Wallace's adoption of an older existing syntactic category and
>they avail themselves of something they call an "implicit executive agent."
>Smyth §1711 "Causative Active" says: "The acaative may be used of an action
>performed t the bidding of the subject: KUROS TA BASILEIA KATEKAUSEN 'Cyrus
>burnt down the palace' (i.e. had it burnt down) Xen. An. 1.4.10. So with
>APOKTEINEIN 'put to death,' QAPTEIN 'bury,' OIKODOMEW 'build,' PAIDEUEIN
>'instruct,' ANAKHRUTTEIN 'publicly proclaim.'"
>
>I might also cite Guy Cooper, Attic Greek Prose Syntax, University of
>Michigan Press: 1998, §52.1.4 (p. 564): "The active forms often present a
>personal subject as acting directly when it must in fact be operating
>mediately through subordinates, servants, messengers, soldiers, subjects,
>contractors, commissioned artists, etc. These are readily conceived of as
>extensions of the subject. This usage is a matter of conception commonto
>Greek and other languages, but it takes a little more extension in
>Classical Greek than is expected in, say, English. Middle forms are found
>in very similar uses ... and there is some nearly comparable idiom even
>with passive forms ..."
>
>Admittedly it is Classical Attic under discussion in Cooper, but that
>should be sufficient to indicate that Wallace hasn't "invented" this
>category. Then there's A.T. Robertson, p. 801f: "(e) The Active as
>Causative" cites Acts 16:3 and also John 19:1 ELABON hO PILATOS TON IHSOUN
>KAI EMASTIGWSEN--unless one wants to suppose that Pilate himself did the
>flogging?
>
>>--- "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
>>wrote:
>>> At 4:40 PM -0800 3/29/04, Eddie Mishoe wrote:
>>> >TOUTON HQELHSEN hO PAULOS SUN AUTWi EXELQEIN, KAI
>>> >LABWN PERIETEMEN AUTON DIA TOUS IOUDAIOUS.....
>>> >
>>> >The NET Bible questions whether or not Paul
>>> actually
>>> >performed the circumcision on Timothy, whereas
>>> >Parsons/Culy seem sure Paul did not do it. What am
>>> I
>>> >overlooking here that would lead one to see someone
>>> >other than Paul performing the circumcision on
>>> >Timothy, especially in light of PERIETEMEN AUTON?
>>>
>>> It's not at all uncommon for an active verb form to
>>> bear the sense of
>>> CAUSING an action to be performed without
>>> necessarily performing it
>>> oneself. Similarly a middle voice may carry the
>>> sense of having an action
>>> performed on one's own behalf without necessarily
>>> performing the action
>>> oneself.
>>>
>>> You might look at Wallace GGBB "B. Causative Active
>>> (a.k.a. Ergative
>>> Active)" pp. 411f. Cf. Smyth ß1711 "Causative
>>> Active."
>>> --
>>>
>>> Carl W. Conrad
>>> Department of Classics, Washington University
>>> (Emeritus)
>>> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828)
>>> 675-4243
>>> cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
>>> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>>
>>
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>
>--
>
>Carl W. Conrad
>Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
>1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
>cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
>WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>---
>B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
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