[B-Greek] hUPOMONH in the Apocalypse
George F. Somsel
gfsomsel at juno.com
Mon May 31 00:27:45 EDT 2004
Harold,
Once again, I see no evidence of any idiom here. Consider the case of
Ignatius' Epistle to the Romans, x
1. GRAFW DE hUMIN TAUTA APO SMURNHS DI' EFESIWN TWN ACIOMAKARISTWN.
ESTIN DE KAI hAMA EMOI SUN POLLOIS KAI KROKOS, TO POQHTON MOI ONOMA. 2.
PERI TWN PROELQONTWN ME APO SURIAS EIS hRWMHN EIS DOCAN TOU QEOU PISTEUW
hUMAS EPEGNWKENAI, hOIS KAI DHLWSATE EGGUS ME ONTA. PANTES GAR EISIN
ACIOI TOU QEOU KAI hUMWN; hOUS PREPON hUMIN TAUTA THi PRO ENNEA KALANDWN
SEPTEMBRIWN ERRWSQE EIS TELOS EN hUPOMOHi IHSOU XRISTOU.
I am looking specifically at the last clause here which in the ANF is
translated "Fare ye well to the end, in the patience of Jesus Christ.
Amen." This seems no more appropriate than the Revelation passages. The
sense required here is more nearly "confession." You can view this is
the native Greek script at
www.ccel.org/l/lake/Fathers/ignatius-romans.htm.
gfsomsel
_________
On Sun, 30 May 2004 20:44:15 -0500 "Harold R. Holmyard III"
<hholmyard at ont.com> writes:
> Dear George,
>
> I said that a more literal translation than the NIV might allow more
>
> nuances. I admitted that I am comfortable with the NIV and perhaps
> could be wrong for liking its handling of the verses you brought up.
>
> So I am acknowledging that it is not a strictly literal translation.
>
> When you reply that it is not the least bit literal in these verses,
>
> you seem to be denying any literal aspect to the translation.
> Perhaps
> it is not literal by some definitions, but a translation ought to
> capture the force of idioms. "Here is the endurance of the saints,"
>
> NIV felt, and I believe correctly, fails to convey the force of the
>
> Greek, which is evidently an idiom. The idea that hUPOMONH means
> "conviction" or something like that would need supporting evidence,
>
> and my older BAGD does not provide any for such a meaning for the
> noun. No, I think the NIV was trying to capture the implications of
>
> the Greek phrase with hWDE. There are idioms in English that are
> simple in terms of words, but which convey a different meaning that
>
> the words might seem to carry to someone unfamiliar with them.
> "Here's looking at you" is a toast, but one needs to be familiar
> with
> the way the words are used. "That's the ballgame" can imply that
> whatever event is being drawn attention to signals the end of the
> effort that is underway. "That's the way it goes" can mean that this
>
> is just the way life works, so one has to get used to it. There are
> a
> lot of plain looking idioms, and I think that hWHE with ESTIN and hH
>
> hUPOMONH was probably a simple idiom in Greek.
>
> Yours,
> Harold Holmyard
>
> >Harold,
> >
> >I'm sorry to have to deflate your ballon, but the NIV is not the
> least
> >bit literal here. The more "literal" translations make no sense,
> and the
> >ones that make sense aren't literal.
> >
> >gfsomsel
> ---
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