[B-Greek] hUPOMONH in the Apocalypse
Harold R. Holmyard III
hholmyard at ont.com
Mon May 31 06:20:59 EDT 2004
Dear George,
Thanks for transcribing that portion of Ignatius's letter. If I
remember, Ignatius wrote all these letters under the shadow of
martyrdom. The need for endurance in the Christian walk in commonly
expressed in the NT. A phrase like "endurance of Jesus Christ" comes
up more than once, either as the endurance He practiced (2 Th 3:5) or
the endurance He commanded (Rev 1:9; 3:10). And the word hUPOMONH is
regularly appears in contexts concerned with the whole course of the
Christian life (too many to note). In Ignatius's letter he closes
with ERRWSQE EIS TELOS EN hUPOMOHi IHSOU XRISTOU. The parting word
ERRWSQE is interesting in that it means literally "be strong." So the
English rendering of "farewell" is not bad, since it can be broken
into "fare well" and so retain something of the Greek imperative. The
phrase EIS TELOS suggests that Ignatius is giving them a word
concerning the rest of their lives. TELOS is used with hUPOMONH in
James 5:11 of the whole course of the reader' lives. And the verb
hUPOMENW occurs with EIS TELOS in the repeated saying of Christ:
Matt. 10:22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands
firm to the end will be saved.
Matt. 24:13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Mark 13:13 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands
firm to the end will be saved.
So Ignatius was closing his letter with words reminiscent of Jesus'
own words to the disciples. There is no real change in the meaning of
the noun hUPOMONH, but rather the expressed hope and call for them to
fare well to the end of the their lives in the endurance of Christ.
That is how I read Ignatius's word.
Yours,
Harold Holmyard
>Harold,
>
>Once again, I see no evidence of any idiom here. Consider the case
>of Ignatius' Epistle to the Romans, x
>
>1. GRAFW DE hUMIN TAUTA APO SMURNHS DI' EFESIWN TWN ACIOMAKARISTWN.
>ESTIN DE KAI hAMA EMOI SUN POLLOIS KAI KROKOS, TO POQHTON MOI ONOMA.
>2. PERI TWN PROELQONTWN ME APO SURIAS EIS hRWMHN EIS DOCAN TOU QEOU
>PISTEUW hUMAS EPEGNWKENAI, hOIS KAI DHLWSATE EGGUS ME ONTA. PANTES
>GAR EISIN ACIOI TOU QEOU KAI hUMWN; hOUS PREPON hUMIN TAUTA THi PRO
>ENNEA KALANDWN SEPTEMBRIWN ERRWSQE EIS TELOS EN hUPOMOHi IHSOU
>XRISTOU.
>
>I am looking specifically at the last clause here which in the ANF
>is translated "Fare ye well to the end, in the patience of Jesus
>Christ. Amen." This seems no more appropriate than the Revelation
>passages. The sense required here is more nearly "confession." You
>can view this is the native Greek script at
><http://www.ccel.org/l/lake/Fathers/ignatius-romans.htm>www.ccel.org/l/lake/Fathers/ignatius-romans.htm.
>
>gfsomsel
>_________
>
>On Sun, 30 May 2004 20:44:15 -0500 "Harold R. Holmyard III"
><<mailto:hholmyard at ont.com>hholmyard at ont.com> writes:
>> Dear George,
>>
>> I said that a more literal translation than the NIV might allow more
>>
>> nuances. I admitted that I am comfortable with the NIV and perhaps
>> could be wrong for liking its handling of the verses you brought up.
>>
>> So I am acknowledging that it is not a strictly literal translation.
>>
>> When you reply that it is not the least bit literal in these verses,
>>
>> you seem to be denying any literal aspect to the translation.
>> Perhaps
>> it is not literal by some definitions, but a translation ought to
>> capture the force of idioms. "Here is the endurance of the saints,"
>>
>> NIV felt, and I believe correctly, fails to convey the force of the
>>
>> Greek, which is evidently an idiom. The idea that hUPOMONH means
>> "conviction" or something like that would need supporting evidence,
>>
>> and my older BAGD does not provide any for such a meaning for the
>> noun. No, I think the NIV was trying to capture the implications of
>>
>> the Greek phrase with hWDE. There are idioms in English that are
>> simple in terms of words, but which convey a different meaning that
>>
>> the words might seem to carry to someone unfamiliar with them.
>> "Here's looking at you" is a toast, but one needs to be familiar
> > with
>> the way the words are used. "That's the ballgame" can imply that
>> whatever event is being drawn attention to signals the end of the
>> effort that is underway. "That's the way it goes" can mean that this
>>
>> is just the way life works, so one has to get used to it. There are
>> a
>> lot of plain looking idioms, and I think that hWHE with ESTIN and hH
>>
>> hUPOMONH was probably a simple idiom in Greek.
>>
>> Yours,
>> Harold Holmyard
>>
>> >Harold,
>> >
>> >I'm sorry to have to deflate your ballon, but the NIV is not the
>> least
>> >bit literal here. The more "literal" translations make no sense,
>> and the
>> >ones that make sense aren't literal.
>> >
>> >gfsomsel
>> ---
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