[B-Greek] Lk 21:1 ptc, adj or subst?

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Sun Oct 31 04:20:59 EST 2004


This message reached the administrators as a bounce; for some reason it
didn't reach the list through regular addressing, but it clearly was meant
for the list and so I am forwarding it now. I'll respond to it below


From: "Barbara D. Colt " <babc2 at comcast.net>
To: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2004 20:02:32 -0700
Subject: RE: [B-Greek] Lk 21:1 ptc, adj or subst?

On 30 Oct 2004 at 23:46, Iver Larsen wrote:
>
> [Carl:]
> > In looking back again at Lk 21:1-2 I think I really would prefer
> > to analyze the construction as you suggest: TOUS BALLONTAS EIS TO
> > GAZOFULAKION TA DWRA AUTWN is, I think the primary object of EIDEN, while
> PLOUSIOUS should
> > probably be understood as a substantive in apposition to TOUS BALLONTAS.
>
> Is it acceptable or normal to have an *anarthrous* substantive like
> PLOUSIOUS function as an apposition to an *arthrous* substantive like TOUS
> BALLONTAS? I don't have access to many grammars, and I could not find an
> answer in BDF. I would have expected another TOUS before PLOUSIOUS, if that
> is the case.
>
You people are the experts, and I don't know much and tend to pay very
little attention to terminology, but I find it very natural to read the
sentence as:  EIDEN TOUS BALLONTAS-EIS-TO-GAZOFULAKION-TA-DWRA-
AUTWN PLOUSIOUS with the hyphenated part acting as a modifier for
PLOUSIOUS.  I suppose it's my ignorance that makes it seem so simple to
me.

Barbara D. Colt
=============
I've indicated previously that I think that this MAY be the proper way to
construe the sequence; I'm just not comfortable with the sequence as a
standard or natural one in Koine Greek. It DOES have the ring of everyday
German with its standard string of sandwiched participial phrase(s), and
there are certainly numerous instances in earlier Greek of lengthy strings
of adverbial modifiers intervening between the article and the noun (e.g.
hOI TOTE EN TWi TEICEI hESTHKONTES STRATIWTAI, "the soldiers who at that
time were standing on the wall") and maybe that's what we have here, but
I'd like to see other instances of this in Biblical Koine. I just have one
of these inexplicable and not-to-be-trusted hunches that TOUS TA DWRA AUTWN
EIS TO GAZOFULAKION BALLONTAS PLOUSIOUS would be more "natural."

As for Iver's question, cited above in Barbara's message, I would be
pleased as punch to see TOUS BALLONTAS EIS TO GAZOFULAKION TA DWRA AUTWN
TOUS PLOUSIOUS: that would make TOUS PLOUSIOUS attributive to TOUS
BALLONTAS--but I'd still understand TOUS BALLONTAS as the direct complement
to EIDEN. I'd like to explore this further; it seems to me that I've seen
things comparable to the word-order of Lk 21:1 in colloquial Latin poetry,
and I am wondering whether this word-order might not be a Latinism.

It is of course perfectly clear that however one understands the syntax of
this sequence, the meaning of the verse is not in question.
-- 

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/



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