[B-Greek] John 1:28

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at ioa.com
Tue Aug 9 07:23:43 EDT 2005


On Aug 9, 2005, at 4:48 PM, Dony K. Donev wrote:

> Should it be rendered as singular "collective" i.e. this thing  
> happened or
> plural these things happened?

It's not so much a matter of "proper" rendering. You can say either  
"These things happened ..." or "This happened ... ." I think English  
idiom generally prefers the singular "this" to the plural "these  
(things)."

But you need to make a distinction between (a) how one understands  
the Greek construction in and of itself and (b) how one best  
represents the content of the Greek construction in a target  
language. I really think it's important for students of Greek to draw  
that distinction sharply: the first and foremost objective is  
understanding the Greek construction. UNLESS you do that first, you  
won't be able to put into English or some other target language  
properly, and that (translation) involves understanding the idiomatic  
structure of the target language as well as understanding precisely  
what the meaning of the Greek text is apart from the syntactical  
construction in which it is expressed. AND -- if you DO come to  
understand precisely what the meaning of the Greek text is apart from  
the syntactical construction in which it is expressed, you really  
have no need to put that meaning into English or another target  
language except to communicate that meaning to readers/listeners/ 
speakers of the target language. The primary objective in reading and  
analysis of a text in an alien language is not translation into a  
target language but comprehension of that original text itself.


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at ioa.com>
> To: "B-Greek B-Greek" <B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Cc: "Dony K. Donev" <dony at cupandcross.com>; "Bob Firth"
> <r.firth at ridley.unimelb.edu.au>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 3:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 1:28
>
>
>
>> I would only add to this that the principle is standard in Classical
>> Attic Greek: neuter plurals take singular verbs; this is regular in
>> Classical Attic but is not universally observed by NT Koine writers;
>> nevertheless it is standard and common.
>>
>> On Aug 9, 2005, at 2:38 AM, Bob Firth wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Dony K. Donev wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Is there a problem with the use of the plural TAUTA in combination
>>>> with the singular EGENETO in John 1:28?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> John 1:28 TAUTA EN BHQANIAi EGENETO PERAN TOU IORDANOU hOPOU HN hO
>>> IWANNHS BAPTIZWN
>>>
>>> According to Wallace, neuter plural subjects normally take a  
>>> singular
>>> verb, so I would say no, there is not a problem. He goes on to  
>>> explain
>>> that the neuter plural subject is often referring to a collective
>>> whole
>>> (in this case "these things" are not treated separately, but as a
>>> group). I hope that is helpful (and accurate).
>>>
>>> Bob
>>> ---
>>> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
>>> B-Greek mailing list
>>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
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>>>
>>
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
>> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
>> cwconrad2 at mac.com
>> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>>
>>
>
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/




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