Re: [B-Greek] 1 Tim 3:4 What does dignity go with?
Carl W. Conrad
cwconrad at ioa.com
Sun Dec 4 04:55:48 EST 2005
On Dec 3, 2005, at 11:43 PM, Yancy Smith wrote:
> Carl said,
>
>> It is, as you accurately noted in the preceding paragraph
>> PROISTAMENON rather than PROISTAMENOS. My sense of the verb
>> PROISTAMAI is not so much "lead" (although that's offered as one of
>> the primary meanings) so much as "govern" or "rule" or even "exercise
>> discipline over."
>
>
> I take PROISTAMAI to mean something like "to so influence others as
> to cause them to follow a recommended course of action — ‘to guide,
> to direct, to lead’" or as BDAG suggest, "to manage or conduct."
Well, it may be a matter of judgment here; you suggested earlier
"lead by example" whereas my inclination is to see it rather as
"maintain control of those under one's authority.
>> What I find somewhat difficult to grasp in your interpretation is how
>> META PASHS SEMNOTHTOS should construe with PROISTAMENON back on the
>> other side of the prepositional phrase TEKNA ECONTA EN hUPOTAGHi.
>
> The connection of META PASHS SEMNOTHTOS, while it is certainly
> possible to construe it with children, as you say, with the meaning "
> keeping his children in their subordinate role with fully-respected
> authority." (This is the way Chrysostom uderstands the connection.
> Theodoret takes takes "with all SEMNOTHTOS" to mean "teaching the
> children every virtue.") At the risk of looking stupid in
> contravening such weighty patristic readings, I still think META
> PASHS SEMNOTHTOS should be taken as modifying PROISTAMENON and not
> ECONTA. Why? One, the words SEMNOTHS and the related SEMNOS seem to
> represent an adult virtue in the Pastorals (not the words they
> couldn't otherwise refer to a childhood virtue; this would be the
> sole exception in the Pastoral, however. This is not a point of
> grammar, but of style.) For Chrysostom (in the Homiles on 1 Tim), for
> example, it is often paired with SWFROSUNHS opposite joking around
> and almost invariably applied to the conduct of husband and wife.
> Two, hOSAUTWS SEMNOS (hOSAUTWS perhaps refering to the similar
> serious conduct of the candidates to the elder-episcopacy in 3:1-7)
> enjoins a corresponding virtue upon prospective deacons in 3:8.
> Three, the editors of the verse in NA 27 place a comma after TECNA
> ECONTA EN hHUPOTAGH, which makes the construal of META PASHS
> SEMNOTHTOS ambiguous at best, but would seem to indicate that TECNA
> ECONTA EN hHUPOTAGH interrupts the flow of thought as a specification-
> restatement, and perhaps the more important case of TOU IDIOU OIKOU
> KALWS PROISTAMENON.
Again, as I said above, this may be a matter of judgment. BUT I never
said that I construed META SEMNOTHTOS as referring to the children as
such; rather I said I thought it referred to the entire participial
phrase TA TEKNA ECONTA EN hUPOTAGHi. Nor in viewing the matter thus
do I have any notion that the SEMNOTHS is here understood as a virtue
of the children. I see it rather as a quality of the potential
EPISKOPOS that he holds what the Romans called "auctoritas":
unquestioned respect for his superior position and right judgments.
>> My own sense of the tenor of this passage is that a good candidate
>> for the episcopate must be a highly-respected disciplinarian over his
>> own household.
> I am in complete agreement that this is an implication of 3:4.
> Certainly the writer would agree that governing his household well
> and having his children in good order implies this.
>
>> One might compare that with 1 Tim 5:9 and
>> the ensuing description of hOI KALWS PROESTWTES PRESBUTEROI and the
>> discipline that is to be maintained in the congregation as a
>> household.
>
> Again, I have no quarrel with this. After having said the above,
> however, I think it is necessary to admit that the phrase is
> ambiguous, though verse v. 8 seems to tip the evidence in my favor.
> I'm interested in reading your always thoughtful response.
I don't see 1 Tim 3:8 being at odds with what I've suggested about
3:4. Yes it reads: DIAKONOUS hWSAUTWS SEMNOUS. I guess the question
is what we understand SEMNOS to mean in this connection. L&N offer:
88.47 SEMNOS, H, ON:: pertaining to appropriate, befitting behavior
and implying dignity and respect — ‘honorable, worthy of respect, of
good character.’ DIAKONOUS hWSAUTWS SEMNOUS ‘helpers should be of
good character’ or ‘deacons …’ 1Tm 3:8.
For me the key phrase there is "implying dignity and respect" --
SEMNOTHS is not a matter of being respected but of commanding
respect, as I see it. The first sense offered in BDAG is "worthy of
respect."
This may ultimately be a matter of differing judgments regarding the
tenor of the entire book. My own inclination is to see 1 Tim as a
whole very much concerned with holding the lines of authority and
good discipline. But I suspect judgments on this matter may well differ.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
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