[B-Greek] Antiphonal reading of John's prologue

neonlinux aka Jim neon.linux at msa.hinet.net
Wed Dec 21 01:28:29 EST 2005


Mr. Kilmon could you please give me
some more references to whom you are referring
to in your brief response?  Especially on-line sources
since it is not very convenient for me to locate
some technical books or periodicals over here in Taiwan.
i.e. many others in reference to the antiphonal reading...
Also is there any MSS evidence for this? 
Thank you kindly for any feedback.

   Jim

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>Today's Topics:
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>   1. Re: John's prologue prose or poetry? (Alexander Loney)
>   2. TIschendorf 8th with morphology and lemmatization:	Version
>      1.1 released! (Ulrik Petersen)
>   3. Re: John's prologue prose or poetry? (Daveat168 at aol.com)
>   4. Re: A Scarecrow Theory of Aspect (Richard Lindeman)
>   5. Fanning - it's available! (Jonathan Robie)
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>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 13:08:12 -0500
>From: Alexander Loney <aloney at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John's prologue prose or poetry?
>To: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon at historian.net>
>Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>Message-ID:
>	<eeb285ef0512181008n2bde1b9of69715ce20579714 at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>I come at this from the other angle. I have no experience with Hebrew poetry
>( beyond translation), but am more familiar with Greek forms. Usually one
>of, perhaps *the*, defiinng characteristic of poetry is whether it's
>metrical, not just merely well-constructed, occasionally rhythmic, or
>euphonious--these are attributes of rhetoric as well as poetry. But just in
>passing I haven't the opportunity yet to try scanning it. Mr. Kilmon, when
>you suggest that it is antiphonal, do you believe that it forms regular
>metrical lines? Does it scan as poetry?
>
>On 12/17/05, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon at historian.net> wrote:
>  
>
>>There are many, including myself, who think the prologue is an antiphonal
>>hymn added to the Gospel (which originally began at 1:19) sometime in the
>>2nd...or perhaps the 3rd century.
>>
>>Jack Kilmon
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: <bowick at idirect.com>
>>To: <bowick at idirect.com>
>>Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 6:54 PM
>>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John's prologue prose or poetry?
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Been doing some more thinking on this.  My seeing this as poetry is
>>>      
>>>
>>based
>>    
>>
>>>entirely on applying my understanding of Hebrew poetic forms to John
>>>      
>>>
>>1:1.
>>    
>>
>>>Is this valid?  I have no experience with Greek poetic structure.  Can
>>>anyone comment on how it might differ?
>>>
>>>James Bowick
>>>      
>>>
>>>>It definitely looks like poetry to me.  The lines are in parallel
>>>>thematically, structuraly and even phonetically, especially in the
>>>>vowels.
>>>> Each line seems to build on the idea of the one previous almost like
>>>>steps, gving it a building feeling.  I have done no reading on this,
>>>>        
>>>>
>>but
>>    
>>
>>>>these are my admittedly casual observations.
>>>>
>>>>James Bowick
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>I was just reading John's prologue, John 1:1 ff.  To me this passage
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>has
>>    
>>
>>>>>always looked like it has a lot of poetic elements in it but I don't
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>see
>>    
>>
>>>>>that commented on very much. What is the consensus of the list. Is
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>this
>>    
>>
>>>>>prose or poetry?
>>>>>Sincerely,
>>>>>Michael Abernathy
>>>>>---
>>>>>B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
>>>>>B-Greek mailing list
>>>>>B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>---
>>>>B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
>>>>B-Greek mailing list
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>>>>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>---
>>>B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
>>>B-Greek mailing list
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>>>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>---
>>B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
>>B-Greek mailing list
>>B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>
>--
>Alexander Loney
>Durham, NC
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:39:14 +0100
>From: Ulrik Petersen <ulrikp at hum.aau.dk>
>Subject: [B-Greek] TIschendorf 8th with morphology and lemmatization:
>	Version 1.1 released!
>To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>Message-ID: <43A67FC2.3090307 at hum.aau.dk>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>List,
>
>Today sees the release of version 1.1 of my "Tischendorf 8th with 
>morphology and lemmatization".  This version has about 800 changes to 
>the text, so that it is more in conformance with the printed 
>Tischendorf.  Mostly changes to capitalization, breathings, punctuation, 
>and diacritics, although a few parsings and lemmas have been corrected 
>as well.
>
>You can download the text here:
>
>http://ulrikp.org/Tischendorf
>
>Enjoy!
>
>Ulrik Petersen
>--
>Ulrik Petersen, PhD candidate, MA, B.Sc.
>University of Aalborg, Denmark
>http://ulrikp.org/ - Homepage
>http://emdros.org/ -- A corpus query system
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 18:48:42 -0500
>From: Daveat168 at aol.com
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John's prologue prose or poetry?
>To: aloney at gmail.com (Alexander Loney)
>Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>Message-ID: <2765DB17.22305CB5.022B1064 at aol.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>Dear Friends,
>   The words now found in John 1:1-4, which indeed reade like an antiphonal hymn, are first recorded, to my best knowledge about 172AD, used by Tatian as the opening of his Magnus Opus.  Tatian used this in place of the introduction now found in the opening of Luke.  Whether he found it in the archive of John, or it was placed there as a result of his work is open to doubt.
>
><<I come at this from the other angle. I have no experience with Hebrew poetry
>( beyond translation), but am more familiar with Greek forms. Usually one
>of, perhaps *the*, defiinng characteristic of poetry is whether it's
>metrical, not just merely well-constructed, occasionally rhythmic, or
>euphonious--these are attributes of rhetoric as well as poetry. But just in
>passing I haven't the opportunity yet to try scanning it. Mr. Kilmon, when
>you suggest that it is antiphonal, do you believe that it forms regular
>metrical lines? Does it scan as poetry?
>
>On 12/17/05, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon at historian.net> wrote:
>  
>
>>There are many, including myself, who think the prologue is an antiphonal
>>hymn added to the Gospel (which originally began at 1:19) sometime in the
>>2nd...or perhaps the 3rd century.>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>  
>




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