[B-Greek] RE: Psalms and Greek Poetry
R Yochanan Bitan Buth
ybitan at mscc.huji.ac.il
Mon Feb 14 14:28:43 EST 2005
Peterson HRWTHSEN
>Or was Classical poetry still being written in the Koine
>period, but it's simply that we don't find it in the GOT?
NAI, EGRAPSAN POLLA -- PARADEIGMATOS XARIN, ANAGINWSKWN TA EPIGRAMMATA
EN the Greek Anthology (Loeb), ARKSHi KALWS.
Write me offlist if you'd like an attachment of a 1st century bar
song//symposion song, with a vocab list and an interesting meter.
ERRWSO
Randall Buth
Randall Buth, PhD
Director, Biblical Language Center
www.biblicalulpan.org
and Director, Biblical Studies in Israel
Hebrew University, Rothberg International School
ybitan at mscc.huji.ac.il
-----Original Message-----
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Subject: B-Greek Digest, Vol 26, Issue 12
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Today's Topics:
1. Meaning of EIS in Philemon 6 (Walter Joiner)
2. Unicode and Open Type (Andrew Bernhard)
3. Re: Meaning of EIS in Philemon 6 (George F Somsel)
4. Re: Psalms and Greek poetry (Albert Pietersma)
5. Re: akataskeuastos in Gen. 1:1 LXX (Revdpickrel at wmconnect.com)
6. Re: akataskeuastos in Gen. 1:1 LXX (Jeffrey B. Gibson)
7. Re: akataskeuastos in Gen. 1:1 LXX (Albert Pietersma)
8. Ephesians 5.14 EGEIRE (CJ Armstrong)
9. Re: Ephesians 5.14 EGEIRE (Carl W. Conrad)
10. RE: Ephesians 5.14 EGEIRE (CJ Armstrong)
11. Re: akataskeuastos in Gen. 1:1 LXX (George F Somsel)
12. Re: akataskeuastos in Gen. 1:1 LXX (Albert Pietersma)
13. Re: Psalms and Greek poetry (Trevor Peterson)
14. RE: akataskeuastos in Gen. 1:1 LXX (Charles Rempel)
15. Re: Psalms and Greek poetry (Albert Pietersma)
16. Re: akataskeuastos in Gen. 1:1 LXX (Albert Pietersma)
17. Re: Psalms and Greek poetry (Trevor Peterson)
18. RE: akataskeuastos in Gen. 1:1 LXX (Charles Rempel)
19. Re: akataskeuastos in Gen. 1:1 LXX (Albert Pietersma)
20. Re: akataskeuastos in Gen. 1:1 LXX (Revdpickrel at wmconnect.com)
21. John 16:8 (Beata Urbanek)
22. Re: John 16:8 (George F Somsel)
23. ELEGCW (AJBIRCH)
24. Re: John 16:8 (Carl W. Conrad)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:00:51 -0500
From: "Walter Joiner" <wjoiner at wilbursmith.com>
Subject: [B-Greek] Meaning of EIS in Philemon 6
To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <000001c51063$9fe0be40$c400a8c0 at sccolu.wilbursmith.local>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
There was some confusion in my reading group about the use of EIS in
Philemon verse 6:
THS PISTEWS SOU ENERGHS GENHTAI EN EPIGNWSEI PANTOS AGATHOU TOU EN
HMIN
EIS XRISTON (hope that transliterated right)
We noticed that in some English translations this is translated "in
Christ" (ie NIV) while others use "for Christ's sake" (ie NASB).
What
in the greek grammer would send you to either meaning, or is it a
contextual issue not a grammatical one?
Thanks,
Sharkey
Walter Sharkey Joiner V, P.E.
Wilbur Smith Associates
1301 Gervais St.
Columbia, SC 29201
Phone 803-758-4538
Fax 803-758-4561
www.wilbursmith.com
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:05:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Andrew Bernhard <abernhar at yahoo.com>
Subject: [B-Greek] Unicode and Open Type
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20050211180501.78682.qmail at web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I've really appreciated the recent discussions about unicode, fonts,
etc. What do list members think of unicode, open type fonts? It seems
open type fonts are cross platform, working on both mac and pc. This
new technology is being developed by Microsoft and Adobe. Is this the
_next_ new thing?
Best,
Andrew
Andrew Bernhard
www.gospels.net
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:38:11 -0500
From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at juno.com>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Meaning of EIS in Philemon 6
To: wjoiner at wilbursmith.com
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20050211.133812.-489223.0.gfsomsel at juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:00:51 -0500 "Walter Joiner"
<wjoiner at wilbursmith.com> writes:
> There was some confusion in my reading group about the use of EIS in
> Philemon verse 6:
>
> THS PISTEWS SOU ENERGHS GENHTAI EN EPIGNWSEI PANTOS AGATHOU TOU EN
> HMIN
> EIS XRISTON (hope that transliterated right)
>
> We noticed that in some English translations this is translated "in
> Christ" (ie NIV) while others use "for Christ's sake" (ie NASB).
> What
> in the greek grammer would send you to either meaning, or is it a
> contextual issue not a grammatical one?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sharkey
> Walter Sharkey Joiner V, P.E.
> Wilbur Smith Associates
> 1301 Gervais St.
> Columbia, SC 29201
> Phone 803-758-4538
> Fax 803-758-4561
> www.wilbursmith.com
____________________
You probably noted that there are two prepositions in this verse -- EN
and EIS. Sometimes there isn't much distinction between the two and
sometimes there is. When the two appear in proximity, I would assume
that there is a distinction. EIS strictly indicates a movement into
whereas EN indicates being within. Another use of EIS is that of the
goal which is what it would seem the translators of the NASB
understood
it to be. There is yet another use which I would tend to favor, viz.
"with reference to, with respect to." I recognize that this is not
the
common understanding, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it
(maybe).
:-)
george
gfsomsel
___________
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:11:08 -0500
From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Psalms and Greek poetry
To: abuian at access4less.net
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <AFA5544C-7C60-11D9-AC12-000393D2C17A at sympatico.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed
Dear Trevor,
The issue you raise has a bit of a history and continues to be
controversial, though it is safe to say that most Septuagint scholars
do not believe that your question can be answered in the affirmative.
Of older literature there are e.g. E. Bouvy Poetes et melodes. Etudes
sur les origines du rythme tonique dans l'hymnopgraphie de l'Eglise
Grecque (1886) and J. Irigoin "La composition rythmique des cantiques
de Luc, " RB 98 (1991 5-50.
In the first place, one needs to ask what is meant by "Greek Poetry".
In broad strokes, does one mean the poetry of classical Greece, i.e.
regular alternation of long and short syllables, which sets the metre,
rhythm being determined by the rise and fall of a pitch accent etc.?
or does one mean the so-called rhythmic poetry of the Byzantine period
onwards, in which, as in English poetry, the rhythm is determined by
the sequence of stressed syllables? Let's just label them C(lassical)
in distinction from B(yzantine).
Though a few metric fragments have been identified in 3 Maccabees and
therefore are thought to hale from a work of Greek poetry, a case for
C
in the Septuagint has not been made. A case for B has recently been
re-made by a young Russian scholar Andre Desnitsky in his PhD
dissertation. To date it remains unpublished though he has published
some articles in Russian and is working on an expanded English version
of his dissertation, which I have seen in draft.
From my perspective the central issue continues to be whether
Septuagint translators can be said DELIBERATELY TO HAVE CREATED the
antecedents of Greek rhythmic poetry or whether, in its reception
history, the LXX (notably the Psalms) EXERTED AN INFLUENCE ON the
evolvement of Greek rhythmic poetry. For the former I see no credible
evidence within the LXX. In fact, I would argue that the
textual-linguistic make-up of most of the LXX makes such highly
improbable even a priori. The latter scenario is certainly possible
though by no means a necessary explanation for the development from
Classical to Byzantine poetry.
Hope that helps a bit.
Al
On Feb 11, 2005, at 6:57 AM, Trevor Peterson wrote:
> I'm interested in whether the Greek translations of psalms
> exhibit poetic features. I realize they may incidentally
> record Hebrew poetic features, but was there any attempt on
> the part of the translators to render the psalms as good,
> Greek poetry? If someone could point to some features and
> examples, or perhaps better, reference any good studies that
> have been done on the topic, I'd appreciate it. I'd never
> really thought about looking for this sort of thing, but it
> occurred to me while translating a psalm from Greek that
> it's probably a relevant issue.
>
> thanks,
>
> Trevor Peterson
> CUA/Semitics
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>
>
Albert Pietersma
Professor of Septuagint and Hellenistic Greek
Near & Middle Eastern Civilizations
University of Toronto
Home: 21 Cross Street,
Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:43:06 EST
From: Revdpickrel at wmconnect.com
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] akataskeuastos in Gen. 1:1 LXX
To: gfsomsel at juno.com, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <145.3f3a3501.2f3e64ca at wmconnect.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
In a message dated 2/11/2005 3:51:19 AM Central Standard Time,
gfsomsel at juno.com writes:
> > I have always thought the adjective AKATASKEUASTOS in LXX Gen. 1:1
> > an odd
> > choice by the translator. Anyone know if recent finds have shed
any
> > light on
> > this?
> >
George,
I found AKATASKEUASTOS somewhere as "adj masc and fem nom sg", meaning
an
empty waste place, unfurnished, a void.
Doug Pickrel
Tejas Valley
San Antonio, TX
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:12:29 -0600
From: "Jeffrey B. Gibson" <jgibson000 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] akataskeuastos in Gen. 1:1 LXX
To: Biblical Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <420D11AD.3C25F2D9 at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Revdpickrel at wmconnect.com wrote:
> In a message dated 2/11/2005 3:51:19 AM Central Standard Time,
> gfsomsel at juno.com writes:
>
> > > I have always thought the adjective AKATASKEUASTOS in LXX Gen.
1:1
> > > an odd
> > > choice by the translator. Anyone know if recent finds have shed
any
> > > light on
> > > this?
> > >
>
> George,
> I found AKATASKEUASTOS somewhere as "adj masc and fem nom sg",
meaning an
> empty waste place, unfurnished, a void.
Here are the instances up through 1 CE
Jeffrey
*********
Aristoteles Phil. et Cor
Divis 37col2.7
Theophrastus Phil.
Hist Plant 9.16.6.9
Liber Enoch
Apocalypsis Enochi 21.1.1
Apocalypsis Enochi 21.2.3
Philo Judaeus Phil.
Aet 19.5
Dionysius Halicarnassensis
Is 15.18
Clemens Romanus Theol. et
Homiliae 11.22.2.3 1
Septuaginta
Gen 1.2.2
Vitae Homeri
012 2713
Apophthegmata
001 73.15
Apophthegmata
005 PRO.3.8
Lexica Segueriana
005 alpha.170.20
Scholia In Demosthenem
Scholia in Demosthenem 3.24b.6
Scholia In Euripidem
Scholia in Euripidem sch Hec.1219.2
Anonymi In Hermogenem Rhet
Prolegomena in librum
Anonymi In Hermogenem Rhet
Commentarium in librum
Scholia In Lucianum
Scholia in Lucianum 23.13.2
Scholia in Lucianum 77,1.1.21
--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
Chicago, IL 60626
jgibson000 at comcast.net
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:15:04 -0500
From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] akataskeuastos in Gen. 1:1 LXX
To: Revdpickrel at wmconnect.com
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <9DAB56C0-7C69-11D9-AC12-000393D2C17A at sympatico.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed
On Feb 11, 2005, at 2:43 PM, Revdpickrel at wmconnect.com wrote:
> In a message dated 2/11/2005 3:51:19 AM Central Standard Time,
> gfsomsel at juno.com writes:
>
>
>>> I have always thought the adjective AKATASKEUASTOS in LXX Gen. 1:1
>>> an odd
>>> choice by the translator. Anyone know if recent finds have shed
any
>>> light on
>>> this?
>>>
>
> George,
> I found AKATASKEUASTOS somewhere as "adj masc and fem nom sg",
meaning
> an
> empty waste place, unfurnished, a void.
Though the Greek is mildly interpretive of the Hebrew, it would seem
eminently intelligible based on standard meanings of AORATOS and
AKATASKEUASTOS. Since the light has not yet been created the earth is
invisible and since the creation has not yet to begin the earth is not
as yet furnished for habitation. The NETS translation is now available
at http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/
Al
>
> Doug Pickrel
> Tejas Valley
> San Antonio, TX
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>
>
Albert Pietersma
Professor of Septuagint and Hellenistic Greek
Near & Middle Eastern Civilizations
University of Toronto
Home: 21 Cross Street,
Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:25:43 -0800
From: "CJ Armstrong" <cjarmstrong at clcs-brea.com>
Subject: [B-Greek] Ephesians 5.14 EGEIRE
To: "Biblical Greek (E-mail)" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <F0A6E6EC6CBBD5119CE300D0B7C637A31FE6A3 at EMAIL>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dear B-Greekers:
What I'm sure is a very simple lexical question struck me in preparing
the
text of Eph 5.8-14. It's the last part of 14: DIO LEGEI EGEIRE, hO
KAQEUDWN, KAI ANASTA EK TWN NEKRWN, KAI EPIFAUSEI SOI hO CRISTOS.
Specifically, I'm interested in your thoughts on the pres act impv use
of
EGEIRE. Of course the context demands some kind of intransitive,
parallel
to ANASTA, but I'm just tripping over a verb I want to make
transitive, or
at least ambiguous. I must admit, I've not yet checked BAGD on its
intransitive use in the NT, nor have I attempted to search the BGreek
archives yet, but your direction would be appreciated.
All best, --cja
Clinton J. Armstrong
Christ Lutheran Church
820 West Imperial Highway
Brea, CA 92821
714.529.2984
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:41:39 -0500
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Ephesians 5.14 EGEIRE
To: "CJ Armstrong" <cjarmstrong at clcs-brea.com>
Cc: "Biblical Greek \(E-mail\)" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <p06210213be32c69c5cc6@[207.69.13.141]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
At 12:25 PM -0800 2/11/05, CJ Armstrong wrote:
>Dear B-Greekers:
>
>What I'm sure is a very simple lexical question struck me in
preparing the
>text of Eph 5.8-14. It's the last part of 14: DIO LEGEI EGEIRE, hO
>KAQEUDWN, KAI ANASTA EK TWN NEKRWN, KAI EPIFAUSEI SOI hO CRISTOS.
>Specifically, I'm interested in your thoughts on the pres act impv
use of
>EGEIRE. Of course the context demands some kind of intransitive,
parallel
>to ANASTA, but I'm just tripping over a verb I want to make
transitive, or
>at least ambiguous. I must admit, I've not yet checked BAGD on its
>intransitive use in the NT, nor have I attempted to search the BGreek
>archives yet, but your direction would be appreciated.
And there's old friend and colleague CJ again, and asking about
something
I've had my eyes on for some time. The verb commonly lemmatized as
EGEIRW
should perhaps actually be lemmatized in the middle as EGEIROMAI
inasmuch
as this intransitive middle is the fundamental form of the verb
"arise,
wake up", while the active EGEIRW is more the causative: "raise,
awaken."
There are 20 imperative forms of this verb: 3x 2pl middle: EGEIRESQE,
1x
2sg passive EGERQHTI and 1x spl passive EGERQHTE. I'd argue that these
middle and passive forms are identical in meaning: "wake up" or "rise
up."
But there are 15x present active imperatives; of these 1 is causative
1 pl
pr imptv EGEIRETE (NEKROUS EGEIRETE, Mt 10:8), but the other 15 are
all 2
sg. active EGEIRE. Curiously all of these are intransitive and seem
almost
adverbial commands: "Up"--it seems an idiomatic usage, like IDOU for
"voil`" "take a gander!" although EIDON normally has active forms, or
like
DEURO which is properly not a verb-form at all but an adverb, "Here!
Come
here!"
--
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:04:18 -0800
From: "CJ Armstrong" <cjarmstrong at clcs-brea.com>
Subject: RE: [B-Greek] Ephesians 5.14 EGEIRE
To: "'Carl W. Conrad'" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
Cc: "Biblical Greek \(E-mail\)" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <F0A6E6EC6CBBD5119CE300D0B7C637A31FE6A4 at EMAIL>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Carl et al.,
Thanks for the idea of "adverbial command" a la IDOU. Englishes like
"Up,
up, sleepy-head!" or "Up, corpse;" reminds one of "Out, Lazarus!"
(which, I
was pleased to discover on looking it up, is actually what you
describe as
an adverbial command in John 11.43: DEURO EXW).
Cheers, --cja
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl W. Conrad [mailto:cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu]
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 2:42 PM
To: CJ Armstrong
Cc: Biblical Greek (E-mail)
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Ephesians 5.14 EGEIRE
At 12:25 PM -0800 2/11/05, CJ Armstrong wrote:
>Dear B-Greekers:
>
>What I'm sure is a very simple lexical question struck me in
preparing the
>text of Eph 5.8-14. It's the last part of 14: DIO LEGEI EGEIRE, hO
>KAQEUDWN, KAI ANASTA EK TWN NEKRWN, KAI EPIFAUSEI SOI hO CRISTOS.
>Specifically, I'm interested in your thoughts on the pres act impv
use of
>EGEIRE. Of course the context demands some kind of intransitive,
parallel
>to ANASTA, but I'm just tripping over a verb I want to make
transitive, or
>at least ambiguous. I must admit, I've not yet checked BAGD on its
>intransitive use in the NT, nor have I attempted to search the BGreek
>archives yet, but your direction would be appreciated.
And there's old friend and colleague CJ again, and asking about
something
I've had my eyes on for some time. The verb commonly lemmatized as
EGEIRW
should perhaps actually be lemmatized in the middle as EGEIROMAI
inasmuch
as this intransitive middle is the fundamental form of the verb
"arise,
wake up", while the active EGEIRW is more the causative: "raise,
awaken."
There are 20 imperative forms of this verb: 3x 2pl middle: EGEIRESQE,
1x
2sg passive EGERQHTI and 1x spl passive EGERQHTE. I'd argue that these
middle and passive forms are identical in meaning: "wake up" or "rise
up."
But there are 15x present active imperatives; of these 1 is causative
1 pl
pr imptv EGEIRETE (NEKROUS EGEIRETE, Mt 10:8), but the other 15 are
all 2
sg. active EGEIRE. Curiously all of these are intransitive and seem
almost
adverbial commands: "Up"--it seems an idiomatic usage, like IDOU for
"voil`" "take a gander!" although EIDON normally has active forms, or
like
DEURO which is properly not a verb-form at all but an adverb, "Here!
Come
here!"
--
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:36:44 -0500
From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at juno.com>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] akataskeuastos in Gen. 1:1 LXX
To: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20050211.183644.-489223.2.gfsomsel at juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:15:04 -0500 Albert Pietersma
<albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca> writes:
>
> On Feb 11, 2005, at 2:43 PM, Revdpickrel at wmconnect.com wrote:
>
> > In a message dated 2/11/2005 3:51:19 AM Central Standard Time,
> > gfsomsel at juno.com writes:
> >
> >
> >>> I have always thought the adjective AKATASKEUASTOS in LXX Gen.
> 1:1
> >>> an odd
> >>> choice by the translator. Anyone know if recent finds have shed
> any
> >>> light on
> >>> this?
> >>>
> >
> > George,
> > I found AKATASKEUASTOS somewhere as "adj masc and fem nom sg",
> meaning
> > an
> > empty waste place, unfurnished, a void.
> Though the Greek is mildly interpretive of the Hebrew, it would seem
>
> eminently intelligible based on standard meanings of AORATOS and
> AKATASKEUASTOS. Since the light has not yet been created the earth
> is
> invisible and since the creation has not yet to begin the earth is
> not
> as yet furnished for habitation. The NETS translation is now
> available
> at http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/
> Al
> >
> > Doug Pickrel
> > Tejas Valley
> > San Antonio, TX
__________________
Since this is the second time this has appeared, I must enter a
disclaimer. I did not write this but replied to this question.
Please,
be more careful in editing posts to which you reply so as not to
misrepresent who said what.
george
gfsomsel
___________
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:47:53 -0500
From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] akataskeuastos in Gen. 1:1 LXX
To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at juno.com>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <58DDF346-7C87-11D9-AC12-000393D2C17A at sympatico.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed
Since I made no attribution but followed a strand, let him whom the
shoe fits wear it.
Al
On Feb 11, 2005, at 6:36 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:15:04 -0500 Albert Pietersma
> <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca> writes:
>>
>> On Feb 11, 2005, at 2:43 PM, Revdpickrel at wmconnect.com wrote:
>>
>>> In a message dated 2/11/2005 3:51:19 AM Central Standard Time,
>>> gfsomsel at juno.com writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> I have always thought the adjective AKATASKEUASTOS in LXX Gen.
>> 1:1
>>>>> an odd
>>>>> choice by the translator. Anyone know if recent finds have shed
>> any
>>>>> light on
>>>>> this?
>>>>>
>>>
>>> George,
>>> I found AKATASKEUASTOS somewhere as "adj masc and fem nom sg",
>> meaning
>>> an
>>> empty waste place, unfurnished, a void.
>> Though the Greek is mildly interpretive of the Hebrew, it would
seem
>>
>> eminently intelligible based on standard meanings of AORATOS and
>> AKATASKEUASTOS. Since the light has not yet been created the earth
>> is
>> invisible and since the creation has not yet to begin the earth is
>> not
>> as yet furnished for habitation. The NETS translation is now
>> available
>> at http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/
>> Al
>>>
>>> Doug Pickrel
>>> Tejas Valley
>>> San Antonio, TX
> __________________
>
> Since this is the second time this has appeared, I must enter a
> disclaimer. I did not write this but replied to this question.
> Please,
> be more careful in editing posts to which you reply so as not to
> misrepresent who said what.
>
> george
> gfsomsel
> ___________
>
>
Albert Pietersma
Professor of Septuagint and Hellenistic Greek
Near & Middle Eastern Civilizations
University of Toronto
Home: 21 Cross Street,
Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:05:33 -0500
From: Trevor Peterson <abuian at access4less.net>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Psalms and Greek poetry
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <420D484D.3060205 at access4less.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Albert Pietersma wrote:
> From my perspective the central issue continues to be whether
> Septuagint translators can be said DELIBERATELY TO HAVE CREATED the
> antecedents of Greek rhythmic poetry or whether, in its reception
> history, the LXX (notably the Psalms) EXERTED AN INFLUENCE ON the
> evolvement of Greek rhythmic poetry. For the former I see no
credible
> evidence within the LXX. In fact, I would argue that the
> textual-linguistic make-up of most of the LXX makes such highly
> improbable even a priori. The latter scenario is certainly possible
> though by no means a necessary explanation for the development from
> Classical to Byzantine poetry.
Please excuse my ignorance. So, is there no clear evidence of what
happened with Greek poetry between the Classical stage and the
Byzantine? Or was Classical poetry still being written in the Koine
period, but it's simply that we don't find it in the GOT? In either
case, your remarks seem to go beyond my question, which was simply,
are
there poetic features in the Greek translation of psalms that are not
incidentally imported from Hebrew? For instance, if we were talking
about Hebrew poetry, we would have to admit that there is a lot of
controversy surrounding the core structure, but we could still
identify
features that tend to distinguish poetry from prose--more frequent use
of figurative language, phonetic patterning, etc. I realize some of
this
sort of thing will simply come across from Hebrew into Greek, but are
there characteristic features that can be observed in the Greek
translation that do not track directly with the Hebrew source?
thanks,
Trevor Peterson
CUA/Semitics
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:44:34 -0600
From: "Charles Rempel" <CharlesR at mygalaxyexpress.com>
Subject: RE: [B-Greek] akataskeuastos in Gen. 1:1 LXX
To: "B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
<NIBBLFPLMLDNDPBDLBAAGEEECCAA.CharlesR at mygalaxyexpress.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Albert Pietersma wrote:
Though the Greek is mildly interpretive of the Hebrew, it would seem
eminently intelligible based on standard meanings of AORATOS and
AKATASKEUASTOS. Since the light has not yet been created the earth is
invisible and since the creation has not yet to begin the earth is not
as yet furnished for habitation.
CDR: It would appear to me that your last sentence is based on
theological
assumptions not determined from the text.
Charles D. Rempel
30 year student
Without Portfolio
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:44:31 -0500
From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Psalms and Greek poetry
To: Trevor Peterson <abuian at access4less.net>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <41FC486E-7C8F-11D9-AC12-000393D2C17A at sympatico.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed
On Feb 11, 2005, at 7:05 PM, Trevor Peterson wrote:
> Albert Pietersma wrote:
>> From my perspective the central issue continues to be whether
>> Septuagint translators can be said DELIBERATELY TO HAVE CREATED the
>> antecedents of Greek rhythmic poetry or whether, in its reception
>> history, the LXX (notably the Psalms) EXERTED AN INFLUENCE ON the
>> evolvement of Greek rhythmic poetry. For the former I see no
>> credible evidence within the LXX. In fact, I would argue that the
>> textual-linguistic make-up of most of the LXX makes such highly
>> improbable even a priori. The latter scenario is certainly possible
>> though by no means a necessary explanation for the development from
>> Classical to Byzantine poetry.
>
> Please excuse my ignorance. So, is there no clear evidence of what
> happened with Greek poetry between the Classical stage and the
> Byzantine?
Of course there is but that was not being asked.
> Or was Classical poetry still being written in the Koine period, but
> it's simply that we don't find it in the GOT?
Precisely, and well into the Byzantine period.
> In either case, your remarks seem to go beyond my question, which
was
> simply, are there poetic features in the Greek translation of psalms
> that are not incidentally imported from Hebrew? For instance, if we
> were talking about Hebrew poetry, we would have to admit that there
is
> a lot of controversy surrounding the core structure, but we could
> still identify features that tend to distinguish poetry from
> prose--more frequent use of figurative language, phonetic
patterning,
> etc. I realize some of this sort of thing will simply come across
from
> Hebrew into Greek, but are there characteristic features that can be
> observed in the Greek translation that do not track directly with
the
> Hebrew source?
You seem to have answered your own question. Since Hebrew poetry
differs from Hebrew prose and since Septuagint translations are
typically formal correspondence/equivalence translations, features of
Hebrew poetry are often carried over in to Greek. BUT THAT DOES NOT
MAKE GREEK POETRY, nor for that matter do such literary devices as
assonance and alliteration, EVEN WHEN THESE APPEAR IN THE GREEK TEXT
WITHOUT WARRANT IN THE SOURCE TEXT. One should bear in mind, however,
that the Hellenistic culture was still very much an oral culture in
which to be it remained an ideal to be regarded "a doer of deeds and A
SPEAKER OF WORDS." Recall the role of rhetoric from the classical
period onward. No great surprise then that even translationese
partakes
at times of the literary features.
But since the question was about Greek POETRY and not about Greek
literary style in general the answer to your initial question remains,
Nonot in my view.
Al
> thanks,
>
> Trevor Peterson
> CUA/Semitics
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>
>
Albert Pietersma
Professor of Septuagint and Hellenistic Greek
Near & Middle Eastern Civilizations
University of Toronto
Home: 21 Cross Street,
Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:49:44 -0500
From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] akataskeuastos in Gen. 1:1 LXX
To: "Charles Rempel" <CharlesR at mygalaxyexpress.com>
Cc: B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <FC5D30C9-7C8F-11D9-AC12-000393D2C17A at sympatico.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed
On Feb 11, 2005, at 7:44 PM, Charles Rempel wrote:
> Albert Pietersma wrote:
>
> Though the Greek is mildly interpretive of the Hebrew, it would seem
> eminently intelligible based on standard meanings of AORATOS and
> AKATASKEUASTOS. Since the light has not yet been created the earth
is
> invisible and since the creation has not yet to begin the earth is
not
> as yet furnished for habitation.
>
> CDR: It would appear to me that your last sentence is based on
> theological
> assumptions not determined from the text.
No theology, I can assure you. I simply observe that in the story A
comes before B; and words do have their stock meanings.
Al
>
> Charles D. Rempel
> 30 year student
> Without Portfolio
>
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>
>
Albert Pietersma
Professor of Septuagint and Hellenistic Greek
Near & Middle Eastern Civilizations
University of Toronto
Home: 21 Cross Street,
Weston ON Canada M9N 2B8
Email: albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~pietersm
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:29:02 -0500
From: Trevor Peterson <abuian at access4less.net>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Psalms and Greek poetry
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <420D69EE.3030603 at access4less.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Albert Pietersma wrote:
>
> You seem to have answered your own question. Since Hebrew poetry
differs
> from Hebrew prose and since Septuagint translations are typically
formal
> correspondence/equivalence translations, features of Hebrew poetry
are
> often carried over in to Greek. BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE GREEK POETRY,
Of course.
> nor
> for that matter do such literary devices as assonance and
alliteration,
> EVEN WHEN THESE APPEAR IN THE GREEK TEXT WITHOUT WARRANT IN THE
SOURCE
> TEXT. One should bear in mind, however, that the Hellenistic culture
was
> still very much an oral culture in which to be it remained an ideal
to
> be regarded "a doer of deeds and A SPEAKER OF WORDS." Recall the
role of
> rhetoric from the classical period onward. No great surprise then
that
> even translationese partakes at times of the literary features.
> But since the question was about Greek POETRY and not about Greek
> literary style in general the answer to your initial question
remains,
> Nob
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