[B-Greek] John 8:58 and Gen 17:1 (LXX)

A. Dirkzwager dirkzwager at pandora.be
Thu Feb 17 03:50:19 EST 2005


Doug,

Very, very interesting.
I never saw the connection, but it is my experience that many of such
connections cannot be found in the commentaries. And yet Jesus used the OT
when discussing with the Jewish theologians. He used the method used by the
rabbi's making only allusions to the OT text of chapter He wanted to quote.
The persons He was speaking with used allusions in their turn in order to
make clear that they understood the allusions and to continue the
discussion.
It is my experience too that He usually left the conclusion to be made by
the the persoons He was speaking with. So your words about hO QEOS SOU are
in my opinion right.

If you are interested in other instances you can contact me off list.

Arie


Dr. A. Dirkzwager
Hoeselt, Belgium
e-mail dirkzwager at pandora.be

----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Van: "Doug Hoxworth" <doughoxworth at yahoo.com>
Aan: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Verzonden: donderdag 17 februari 2005 5:46
Onderwerp: [B-Greek] John 8:58 and Gen 17:1 (LXX)


> I don't want to resurrect this whole thread (since I
> know that this was just recently discussed) nor do I
> want to bring up any theological issues. But I wanted
> to bounce an idea off of you all for discussion
> because I found something that I found very intriguing
> about John 8:58 and Gen 17:1 in the LXX.
>
> People were bringing up Exod 3:14 and some texts in
> Isaiah (I think this was George Somsel) as parallels.
> Out of curiosity, I thought I'd do a search to find
> EGW EIMI in the LXX and Genesis 17:1 came up. What I
> found was that there were a number of similarities
> that seem to suggest that this was what Christ was
> alluding to. Here are the texts:
>
> Gen 17:1 EGENETO DE ABRAM ETWN ENENHKONTA ENNEA, KAI
> WFQH KURIOS TWi ABRAM KAI EIPEN AUTWi EGW EIMI hO QEOS
> SOU, EUARESTEI ENANTION EMOU KAI GINOU AMEMPTOS
>
> John 8:56 ABRAAM hO PATHR hUMWN HGALLIASATO hINA IDHi
> THN hHMERAN THN EMHN, KAI EIDEN KAI ECARH 57 EIPON OUN
> hOI IOUDAIOI PROS AUTON PENTHKONTA ETH OUPW ECEIS KAI
> ABRAAM hEWRAKAS; 58 EIPEN AUTOIS IHSOUS AMHN AMHN LEGW
> hUMIN, PRIN ABRAAM GENESQAI EGW EIMI
>
> The language was somewhat similar and both are
> discussing Abraham (something which the other proposed
> allusions lacked). For example, EGENETO/GENESQAI;
> ABRAM/ABRAAM (change of name in Gen 17:5 from ABRAM to
> ABRAAM); ENENHKONTA/PENTHKONTA; ETWN/ETH; WFQH/IDHi;
> EIPEN AUTWi/EIPEN AUTOIS; EGW EIMI/EGW EIMI
>
> In addition, this would explain their attempt to stone
> Him, if He was making an implicit claim (leaving off
> the hO QEOS SOU as a sort of aposiopesis or something)
> to deity. To me this all works well because the
> allusion includes many parallel words and discusses
> the age of Abraham at which time the Lord appeared to
> Him to discuss the Abrahamic covenant which we find
> that later Christ came to fulfill (cf. Gal 3:6-9, 16).
> In other words, when Abraham saw the Lord in the
> cutting of the Abrahamic covenant (and of Gen 17), he
> saw Jesus' day and rejoiced in it.
>
> Anyway, I looked through all of my commentaries and I
> hadn't seen this text proposed as an illusion and I
> wanted to submit here for peer review. So please let
> me know your thoughts. Thank you.
>
> Doug Hoxworth
> Luther Rice Seminary
>
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