[B-Greek] John 8:58 PPA???

kgraham0938 at comcast.net kgraham0938 at comcast.net
Sat Jan 15 08:55:32 EST 2005


 There is a guy named Jason Beduhn currently debating with Rob Bowman on the issue of John 8:58 right now.  His view is that John 8:58 is a PPA. (present of Past Action still in progress).  

He also argues that saying Before Abraham was I AM was bad english.

But since this is a greek chat room, does anyone here think John 8:58 could be a PPA??

--
Kelton Graham
KGRAHAM0938 at comcast.net


> On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 01:47:31 -0600 "Gary Hedrick" <gary at cjf.org> writes:
> >            In John 8:58, Jesus makes the rather incredible claim that 
> > before
> > Abraham was born, "I am" (ego eimi).  Aside from the obvious import 
> > of
> > Jesus' declaration that He existed even before Abraham came into 
> > being,
> > could He also be identifying himself here as the "I AM" of Ex. 3:14? 
> >  The
> > LXX at Ex. 3:14 has, Egw eimi ho wn ("I am the one who is").
> > 
> >             The Hebrew at Ex. 3:14 has ahaya asar ahaya ("I am who I 
> > am," or
> > "I will be who I will be").
> > 
> >             Interestingly, the Hebrew NT translates ego eimi as ani 
> > hoo, or
> > "I (am) he," at John 8:58, so it doesn't appear to make a clear 
> > connection
> > to Ex. 3:14 (that is, unless I'm missing something here).  But I 
> > realize
> > we're not here to talk about theology, or even about Hebrew, so my 
> > question
> > for this list is simply this: based on the Greek texts of both John 
> > 8:58 and
> > also the LXX Ex. 3:14, is it plausible that Jesus was equating 
> > himself with
> > the great I AM of the OT?  Or do you agree with critics of this view 
> > who say
> > the connection between John 8:58 and Ex. 3:14 is a stretch?
> > 
> >             Also, I wonder if we have a hint as to the meaning of 
> > the Greek
> > text when it says in the next verse that the Judeans who heard Him 
> > responded
> > by picking up stones to execute Him, ostensibly for blasphemy, or 
> > for
> > claiming to be God.  Would there have been any basis for a death 
> > sentence if
> > He was not equating himself with God?
> > 
> >             I'm rather new to this list, so if there's something in 
> > the
> > archives about this, perhaps someone would be kind enough to point 
> > me in the
> > right direction.  Many thanks.
> > 
> > Dr. Gary Hedrick
> > 
> > CJF Ministries
> > 
> > 611 Broadway
> > 
> > San Antonio, TX 78215 USA
> > 
> > Phone 210-226-1075, Ext. 115 (w/ voice mail)
> > 
> > Fax 210-690-8421
> > 
> > gary at cjf.org or gmhedrick at sbcglobal.net
> ___________________
> 
> I think Isaiah might be a more fruitful source from which to derive the
> "I am" passages of John.  I believe Joachim Jeremias wrote something on
> this though it has been quite a number of years since I read it.
> 
> Is 43.10   hINA GNWTE KAI PISTEUSHTE KAI SUNHTE hOTI EGW EIMI
>                  MT L:Ma(aN T."D:(W. W:Ta)a:MiYNW. LiY W:TfBiYNW. ***
> K.iY_)a:NiY HW.) *** (as in your Hebrew NT)
>      43.25  EGW EIMI EGW EIMI hO ECALEIFWN TAS ANOMIAS SOU
>      45.8    EGW EIMI KURIOS hO KTISAS SE
>      45.18  EGW EIMI, KAI OUK ESTIN ETI
>      45.19  EGW EIMI hO QEOW, KAI OUK ESTIN ALLOS
>      46.4    hEWS GHROUS EGW EIMI, KAI hEWS AN KATAGHRASHTE, EGW EIMI
> etc.
> 
> george
> gfsomsel
> ___________
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