[B-Greek] IWANNHN 1:1
Carl W. Conrad
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Sun Mar 6 15:06:12 EST 2005
Richard, I am honestly glad to see you sticking to your guns; if you have
the evidence to support an assertion, it is certainly appropriate to
present it.
At 1:10 AM -0500 3/6/05, MAKARIOIOIPRAEIS at aol.com wrote:
>(Dr. Conrad)
>>I'm assuming that by the above is meant "hO LOGOS HN hO QEOS"--it should be
>noted that this is extremely unlikely to be used by a Greek writer, since
>the article is used precisely to indicate the subject in a copulative
>clause.
>
>(Richard)
>Here's that quote from Roberson Word pictures on John 1:1
>"And the Word was God (kai theos en ho logos). By exact and careful language
>John denied Sabellianism by not saying (ho theos en ho logos). That would mean
>that all of God was expressed in ho logos and the terms would be
>interchangeable, each having the article. The subject is made plain by the
>article (ho
>logos) and the predicate without it (theos)"
>
>Sometimes the article is present in both subject and predicate
>Matt 13:38 hO DE AGROS ESTIN hO KOSMOS
>1 John 3:4 ..hH hAMARTIA ESTIN hH ANOMIA
>Luke 8:11 hO SPOROS ESTIN hO [LOGOS TOU QEOU]
>1 John 5:6 TO PNEUMA ESTI TO MARTUROUN
My own assertion was not that this configuration with copulative verbs
never occurs, but that it is not really very common--or, as I put it,
"extremely unlikely" in John 1:1c.
>...making the two in a sense identical, but John did not want to present
>"modalism" when introducing the Word and God in John 1:1.
Thanks for indicating your source for the propositions. I personally admire
the work of ATR as much as any B-Greeker, perhaps more than some, but I am
somewhat disturbed by the suggestion that the author of GJn was cognizant
of and determined to avoid theological stances that might later arise. As
for the assertion, "The subject is made plain by the article (hO LOGOS) and
the predicate without it (QEOS)," I certainly am in agreement with that.
>(Dr. Conrad)
>>QEOS HN hO LOGOS; and I don't think Colwell's rule has anything to do
>with this but concerns rather the linkage of two nouns governed by a single
>article.
I very much regret writing that; I had one of my "senior moments" here and
confused Colwell's Rule with Granville-Sharp's Rule, as those who know will
probably have recognized.
>(Richard)
>I'm a little confused here by "but concerns rather the linkage of two nouns
>governed by a single article" that sounds like a description for the "TSKS"
>construction ... I thought Colwell's rule is to explain why a Predicate
>does not
>posses the article when it precedes a copulative verb.
>
>"A definite predicate nominative has the article when it follows the verb; it
>does not have the article when it precedes the verb"
>E. C. Colwell, A Definite Rule for the Use of the Article in the Greek New
>Testament
>
>The point was that since QEOS here is anarthrous it does not necessarily give
>it an indefinite meaning, seeing that it is so in John 1:1 has to do with its
>word order in relation to the verb.
I think you'd do well to look at a 4-page PDF file on "Colwell's Rule" put
together by Rod Decker and accessible at
http://faculty.bbc.edu/rdecker/documents/colwell.pdf
A lot of water has passed under the bridge on this issue since 1933;
moreover, I reproduce below a message I sent to the list a bit over four
years ago about some of the more significant discussions of this topic
(Colwell's Rule and Jn 1:1c) over the years on B-Greek; needless to say, my
list below is by no means exhaustive, but I think Rod's paper cited above
is pretty useful.
>PS please forgive all the previous spelling mistakes, that was from copying
>and pasting the examples, I don't remember the source but its out there
>somewhere.
I'd only say about this that it's sort of dangerous to cut and paste Greek
font material into an ASCII text; it may even be easier to type in the
transliterated text directly than to attempt to correct a pasted text.
At 3:43 PM -0600 3/1/01, Carl W. Conrad wrote:
>Hoping to give some older fodder to chew on to those who are determined to
>retread this ground, I list herewith some of the earlier discussions that
>focused essentially on John 1:1c. This is by no means an exhaustive list,
>as the topic recurs regularly at least once every half-year, and there have
>been several discussions in the past two years as well as these from mid-98
>and earlier.
>
>Stephen Carlson 1/18/96 Qualitative QEOS in John
>Wes C. Williams 1/19/96 Re: Qualitative QEOS in John
>Wes C. Williams 1/19/96 Qualitative QEOS in John
>Stephen Carlson 1/22/96 Re: Qualitative QEOS in John
>Stephen Carlson 1/22/96 A Bayesian Analysis of Jn1:1 (long)
>Wes C. Williams 1/24/96 re: A Bayesian Analysis of Jn1:1 (long)
>Al Kidd 9/15/96 Qualitative-Indefinite Pre-verbal
>Predicates
>
>Carl W. Conrad 8/29/97 Re: Jn 1:1, Colwell, Nelson Stdy Bible
>Rolf Furuli 8/29/97 Jn 1:1, Colwell, Nelson Stdy Bible
>Paul S. Dixon 8/29/97 Re: Jn 1:1, Colwell, Nelson Stdy Bible
>Paul S. Dixon 9/1/97 Re: Jn 1:1, Colwell, Nelson Stdy Bible
>Williams, Wes 9/2/97 Re: Jn 1:1, Colwell, Nelson Stdy Bible
>Paul S. Dixon 9/2/97 Re: Jn 1:1, Colwell, Nelson Stdy Bible
>Rolf Furuli 9/2/97 Re: Jn 1:1, Colwell, Nelson Stdy Bible
>Williams, Wes 9/2/97 Re: Jn 1:1, Colwell, Nelson Stdy Bible
>Williams, Wes 9/3/97 Re: Jn 1:1, Colwell, Nelson Stdy Bible
>Carl W. Conrad 9/3/97 Re: Jn 1:1, Colwell, Nelson Stdy Bible
>Apokrisis1 at aol.com 9/3/97 Re: Jn 1:1, Colwell, Nelson Stdy Bible
>Rolf Furuli 9/4/97 Re: Jn 1:1, Colwell, Nelson Stdy Bible
>gjordan 9/4/97 Re: Jn 1:1, Colwell, Nelson Stdy Bible
>Dale M. Wheeler 9/6/97 Re: Jn 1:1, Colwell, Nelson Stdy Bible
>Rolf Furuli 9/7/97 Re: Jn 1:1, Colwell, Nelson Stdy Bible
>Rolf Furuli 9/8/97 Re: Jn 1:1, Colwell, Nelson Stdy Bible
>Rolf Furuli 9/8/97 Re: Jn 1:1, Colwell, Nelson Stdy Bible
>John Kendall 9/8/97 Re: Jn 1:1, Colwell, Nelson Stdy Bible
>Rolf Furuli 9/9/97 Re: Jn 1:1, Colwell, Nelson Stdy Bible
>
>Apokrisis1 at aol.com 9/3/97 Qualitative and Indefinite
>John Kendall 9/6/97 Re: Qualitative and Indefinite
>Apokrisis1 at aol.com 9/8/97 Qualitative, Indefinite, or Definite?
>Al Kidd 9/15/96 Qualitative-Indefinite Pre-verbal
>Predicates
>
>Rolf Furuli 9/5/97 John 1:1c --- An Experiment
>
>Rolf Furuli 9/5/97 RE: ALLOS and Jn. 1:1c/Was Anarthrous Subject
>CWestf5155 at aol.com 9/6/97 Re: ALLOS and Jn. 1:1c/Was Anarthrous Subject
>CWestf5155 at aol.com 9/4/97 Re: Anarthrous Subject with Articular Predicate
>Carl W. Conrad 9/6/97 Re: John 1:1
>
>Williams, Wes 9/19/97 RE: John 1:1 QEOS definitely definite?
>Rev. Craig R. Harmon 9/22/97 Re: John 1:1 QEOS definitely definite?
>Jonathan Robie 9/22/97 Re: John 1:1 QEOS definitely definite?
>Carl W. Conrad 9/22/97 Re: John 1:1 QEOS definitely definite?
>Williams, Wes 9/23/97 Re: John 1:1 QEOS definitely definite?
>
>Jonathan Robie 10/11/97 RE: Translation for O LOGOS (John 1)?
>Carl W. Conrad 10/11/97 RE: Translation for O LOGOS (John 1)?
>
>Jonathan Robie 1/2/98 Re: Gramcord notes on the article
>Rolf Furuli 1/2/98 Re: Gramcord notes on the article
>
>Jonathan Robie 1/2/98 Mounce: hO LOGOS HN QEOS
>Carl W. Conrad 1/2/98 Re: Mounce: hO LOGOS HN QEOS
>Jonathan Robie 1/2/98 Re: Mounce: hO LOGOS HN QEOS
>Carl W. Conrad 1/2/98 Re: Mounce: hO LOGOS HN QEOS
>Stephen C. Carlson 1/2/98 Re: Mounce: hO LOGOS HN QEOS
>Jonathan Robie 1/2/98 Re: Mounce: hO LOGOS HN QEOS
>Jonathan Robie 1/2/98 Re: Mounce: hO LOGOS HN QEOS
>Paul S. Dixon 1/2/98 Re: Mounce: hO LOGOS HN QEOS
>Carl W. Conrad 1/2/98 Re: Mounce: hO LOGOS HN QEOS
>Daniel Riaño 1/4/98 Re: Mounce: hO LOGOS HN QEOS
>
>mjoseph 1/3/98 Articles, theology, and translation
>Rolf Furuli 1/3/98 Re: Articles, theology, and translation
>
>Carl W. Conrad 12/31/97 Re: The article for abstract nouns
>Carl W. Conrad 12/31/97 Re: The article for abstract nouns
>Dale M. Wheeler 12/31/97 Re: The article for abstract nouns
>Dale M. Wheeler 12/31/97 Re: The article for abstract nouns
>Jonathan Robie 12/31/97 Re: The article for abstract nouns
>Jonathan Robie 12/31/97 Re: The article for abstract nouns
>Jonathan Robie 12/31/97 Re: The article for abstract nouns
>Paul S. Dixon 1/1/98 Re: The article for abstract nouns
>Wes Williams 1/1/98 Re: The article for abstract nouns
>Williams, Wes 12/31/97 Re: The article for abstract nouns
>Dale M. Wheeler 1/2/98 Re: The article for abstract nouns
>Wes Williams 1/2/98 Re: The article for abstract nouns
>Rolf Furuli 1/3/98 Re: The article for abstract nouns
>Paul S. Dixon 1/5/98 Re: The article for abstract nouns
>Jonathan Robie 1/5/98 Re: The article for abstract nouns
>Jonathan Robie 1/6/98 Re: The article for abstract nouns
>Al Kidd 1/6/98 Re: The article for abstract nouns
>Al Kidd 1/6/98 Re: The article for abstract nouns
>Paul S. Dixon 1/6/98 Re: The article for abstract nouns
>Jonathan Robie 1/7/98 Re: The article for abstract nouns
>Al Kidd 1/8/98 Re: The article for abstract nouns
>Al Kidd 1/8/98 Re: The article for abstract nouns
>
>Rolf Furuli 1/19/98 Re: (long) On the interpretation of the New Testament
>Rolf Furuli 2/10/98 Re: Jn.1:1b word order
>
>Rolf Furuli 2/13/98 Re: (long) Jn.1:1b word order
>Paul S. Dixon 2/13/98 Re: (long) Jn.1:1b word order
>
>Edgar Foster 4/7/98 Caird and Carson
>Jim West 4/7/98 Re: Caird and Carson
>Edgar Foster 4/7/98 Re: Caird and Carson
>
>Steve Long 6/11/98 A different look at John 1:1c
>Paul S. Dixon 6/12/98 Re: A different look at John 1:1c
>Steve Long 6/12/98 Re: A different look at John 1:1c
>Paul R. Zellmer 6/12/98 Re: A different look at John 1:1c
--
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
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