[B-Greek] Adjectival and Adverbial Prepositional Phrases in Biblical Greek
Carl W. Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Mon May 16 15:15:38 EDT 2005
On Sunday, May 15, 2005, at 09:39PM, James Davis <jamesdavis at focusonthescriptures.com> wrote:
>Again, I will try to clarify my earlier questions regarding Adjectival and Adverbial Phrases in Biblical Greek.
>
>Earlier I really asked two questions regarding the following two sentences that were proposed for consideration by James Tauber: 'I saw the man with my binoculars' and 'I saw the man with my hat.'
>
>My questions were: Can 'with my hat' and 'with my binoculars' be expressed in NT Greek as META + a genitive characterizing a noun, the object of a verb?
And the answer is: NO, these expressions can NOT be expressed in NT Greek as META + genitive--at least not simply. If the sentence means "I saw a man holding my binoculars" It would be EIDON ANQRWPON (ANDRA) ECONTA ... + acc.); if the sentence means "I saw a man by using my binoculars," it would be EIDON ANQRWPON/ANDRA TOIS (binoculars) MOU -- i.e. one would use an instrumental dative, not META + genitive. Presumably "I saw the man with my hat" is to be understood as "I saw the man wearing my hat" -- in Greek that would normally be TON ANQRWPON/ANDRA EIDON ECONTA THi KEFALHi ("hat") in acc. Obviously I don't have equivalent words for "binoculars" and "hat" in Koine Greek, but that's the grammar and idiom that would ordinarily apply.
The next questions are therefore inapplicable.
>If yes, the next question is: Suppose the noun 'man' in each phrase were replaced with the pronoun him, could the prepositional phrase META + a genitive then characterize the pronoun. I would appeciate, very much, your comments.
>
>And, my next question concerned Luke 24:30: KAI EGENETO EN-TW- KATAKLIQHNAI AUTON MET' AUTWN, LABWN TON ARTON... One interlinear translation translates this as: "And it came to pass as reclined he with them, having taken the bread"...
>
>Wallace says: "Basic uses of META With Genitive a. Association/ Accompaniment: with, in company with."
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>He or him with them. My question was: Does MET' AUTWN characterize the pronoun AUTON?
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>James Davis
>
>On Sat, 14 May 2005 20:58:07 -0400 "Carl W. Conrad" wrote:
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>> No, MET' AUTWN does NOT construe with AUTON; AUTON is the accusative subject of the articular infinitive KATAKLIQHNAI; MET' AUTWN construes with KATAKLIQHNAI.
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>>I get the impression that you're taking your cue from the word-order of the interlinear. Interlinears are somewhat notorious for creating misconceptions about the construction of the Greek; unless one already has a pretty strong grounding in the language being translated in the interlinear version, this sort of translation which attempts literal English equivalents of the Greek is misleading: the "he" of "as reclined he with them" is actually AUTON, the subject of the infinitive. Once again--as is almost always the case--the META + genitive prepositional phrase turns out to be adverbial, and in this instance it qualifies the verb.
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>Carl W. Conrad
>
>Please undestand that this discussion regarding adjectival and adverbial phrases is being very helpful to me. Each of your contributions is very greatly appreciated.
>
>I would like to receive some comments regarding my earlier questions: "I asked two questions regarding the following two sentences that were proposed for consideration by James Tauber: 'I saw the man with my binoculars' and 'I saw the man with my hat. Again, my questions were: Can 'with my hat' and 'with my binoculars' be expressed in NT Greek as META + a genitive characterizing a noun, the object of a verb? If yes, the next question is: suppose the noun 'man' in each phrase were replaced with the pronoun him, could the prepositional phrase META + a genitive then characterize the pronoun. I would appeciate, very much, your comments."
>
>Carl, regarding your response to my question concerning Luke 24:30, I have been influenced by the word-order of the "literal" interlinear translations. I have also been influenced by the word-order of English.
>
>You may recall what Oun Kwon wrote on 13 May 2005 20:12:
>
>"From my professional life, I remember the two prepositional phrases as the most commonly overused expression in writings in the field of medicine. One is 'with ~' and another one is 'due to ~'. It reads like everything is 'with something' and everything is caused 'due to something'.
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>Luke 9:39 'with foaming' is a typical example. Usually the context tells us what it means, even without getting down to the grammatical or syntactical analysis.
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>As to the example of 'I saw a man with my binocular.' This case, the listeners usually take the with-phrase connected to the immediate antecedent. If I want to mean the other way, I had better put the phrase in the beginning of the sentence, breaking it away from 'man' and bringing it close to I."
>
>Regarding Luke 24:30, the interlinear translation of the NASB-NIV Parallel New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1993) says:
>KAI EGENETO EN TW KATAKLIQHNAI AUTON MET' AUTWN, LABWN TON ARTON... "And it came to pass in the to recline (as he reclined) him with them, taking the loaf"...
>
>Now, to my next question: I understand AUTON in Luke 24:30 is the accusative subject of the articular infinitive KATAKLIQHNAI. But, is it NOT possible for MET' AUTWN to be construed with either the infinitive or AUTON - It came to pass as he reclined with them, taking the loaf, or as Wallace suggests that Basic Uses of META with a Genitive means: It came to pass as he (in company) with them reclined, taking the loaf?
>
>Is there a rule that governs this? Or is it as James Tauber said on May 13, 2005: "Whether a particular prepositional phrase is adverbial or adjectival is, I suspect, almost always something that has to be inferred from the context rather than there being any syntactic rules."
>
>It would seem to me that following the word-order of the Greek you could have "the with phrase connected to the immediate antecedent" in English as it is in Greek and it would make good sense.
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>I would greatly appreciate your comments.
>
>James Davis
>jdavis at focusonthescriptures.com
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
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