[B-Greek] Translating Mark 1:4 and future verses
Dan Gleason
dan-bgreek at hotmail.com
Thu Nov 3 20:39:45 EST 2005
I'd like to thank everypne again for their feedback to my translations.
In the future I think the best policy for me will be to cite translations of
a verse from various well known bibles and narrowly focus my attention on a
Greek word or phrase for which I have a question.
I really don't want to get caught up in any controversy over some part of my
own translation that to me is a side issue.
I ordered the BDAG 2000 book and will get it in a few days. After I get
aquainted with it I'm sure I will have some questions at that time.
sincerely,
Dan Gleason
>From: Glenden Riddle <glendenpriddle at yahoo.com>
>To: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at ioa.com>, Dan Gleason
><dan-bgreek at hotmail.com>
>CC: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Translating Mark 1:4 and 1:8 (revised)
>Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 14:37:00 -0800 (PST)
>
>Dan and others interested in this topic of word
>meaning and translation,
>I have always thought the greatest danger of having a
>couple of years of Greek in seminary training is the
>unrealistic picture students often get of how
>translation works. During the last thirty years we
>have been blessed with the introduction of linguistics
>alongside the biblical languages. Without this wedding
>of the basic language courses and linguistics much
>harm has been done under the guise of exegesis.
>I have my language students study in addition to the
>Greek and Hebrew grammar the following:
>Moises Silva "Biblical Words and their Meaning"
>David Alan Black "Linguistics for Students of New
>Testament Greek"
>J.P. Louw "Semantics of New Testament Greek"
>For those who can handle a more difficult level"
>James Barr "The Semantics of Biblical Language"
>And, on a more specific topic:
>Mark L. Strauss "Distorting Scripture? The Challenge
>of Bible Translation & Gender Accuracy"
>D.A. Carson "The Inclusive Lanuage Debate"
>Any ambassador working in the U.N. who had a
>translator translating in the way many try to
>translate the Biblical texts...well, let's just say
>that translator would be numbered among the unemployed
>statistics.
>glenden p. riddle
>albuquerque, NM
>
>--- "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at ioa.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > On Nov 3, 2005, at 4:36 PM, Dan Gleason wrote:
> >
> > > Dr Conrad
> > > Thank you for the very candid and constructive
> > critisism. I admit,
> > > I may be wrong on the way I translated Holy Spirit
> > but the more
> > > important issue is how I translated the word
> > baptism.
> > >
> > > Regarding my interlinear approach, I think
> > translating the greek
> > > verb BAPTW as a primary word pointing to
> > "immersion" in all it's
> > > cognates rather than to an alternate connotation
> > such as "ritual
> > > washing for the remission of sins" leads to seeing
> > the Greek text
> > > in a new light.
> >
> > Part of the problem (what I, at least, view as a
> > problem) is that you
> > are thinking of BAPTW, a verb which does mean "dip"
> > or "immerse" in a
> > very concrete sense, as what BAPTIZW really means,
> > so much so, in
> > fact, that you are even writing BAPTW here as if it
> > were the verb in
> > the texts of Mark 1:4 and 1:8.
> >
> > > For example, in my Mk 1:4 post the theme of
> > immersing in the
> > > wilderness points to Moses, Elias, and Jesus who
> > were all "immersed
> > > in the wilderness" - one for 40 yrs, the other two
> > for 40 days.
> > > Immersion also points to Baptism (as washing) then
> > to "Imersion in
> > > Water" (a form of Chistening for people), then on
> > to "immersion in
> > > the Holy Spirit" (Mk 1:8) The way I see it, the
> > word "immersion"
> > > does double duty whereas baptism does not.
> >
> > And as George has already pointed out, you've now
> > moved on to
> > "immersion" as some sort of code-word for "long-term
> > residence" in
> > the desert. I think you are playing games with Greek
> > and English
> > rather than dealing with demonstrable meanings.
> >
> > >> From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at ioa.com>
> > >> To: Dan Gleason <dan-bgreek at hotmail.com>
> > >> CC: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > >> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Translating Mark 1:8
> > (revised)
> > >> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 14:52:25 -0500
> > >>
> > >> Dan, you've made perfectly clear that you intend
> > to persist with
> > >> this "interlinear" mode of transliteration
> > despite the fact that
> > >> several respondents have called attention to its
> > inaccurate
> > >> representation of the sense of the Greek. So
> > here "immerse" for
> > >> "BAPTIZW" has been faulted by several
> > respondents as inaccurate
> > >> certainy for the second verb form here
> > (BAPTISEI), and while you
> > >> might think "a Holy Spirit" accurately
> > represents the Greek text
> > >> PNEUMATI hAGIWi, what you're deriving from the
> > Greek is pidgin-
> > >> English rather than an equivalent of what the
> > Greek text says.
> > >> What's wrong with this "interlinear" style of
> > "translation" is
> > >> that it's based on an assumption that the
> > "forest" of a sequence
> > >> of discourse is no less and no more than but
> > exactly equal to the
> > >> sum of the "trees" of words inside that
> > sequence. I think that's
> > >> been stated in different ways in several of the
> > responses to your
> > >> idiosyncratic renderings of Marcan texts, but I
> > felt it was worth
> > >> reiterating "yet once more again," despite the
> > fact that you've
> > >> made it obvious that you intend to go on doing it
> > this way.
> > >>
> > >> On Nov 3, 2005, at 2:14 PM, Dan Gleason wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Translating Mark 1:8 (revised)
> > >>>
> > >>> EGW EBAPTISA UMAS UDATI
> > >>> I immersed you in Water ...
> > >>>
> > >>> AUTOS DE BAPTISEI UMAS EN PNEUMATI AGIWi
> > >>> but he will-immerse you in <a-Holy Spirit >
> > correct to "a Holy
> > >>> Spirit." .
> > >>>
> > >>> Is this translation accurate?
> > >>> ______________________
> > >>>
> > >>> Based on the feedback I have recieved re
> > PNEUMATI AGIWi (an
> > >>> antherous noun modified by an adjective) my new
> > translation is
> > >>> "a Holy Spirit."
> > >>> In all similar circumstances I will never use
> > "a-" and connect
> > >>> it to the noun again.
> > >>>
> > >>> However, I don't think there is anything wrong
> > with my use of
> > >>> the hyphen for embedded words.
> > >>> I don't see anything wrong with this interlinear
> > approach.
> > >>>
> > >>> I have read the feedback about why using "the"
> > instead of "a"
> > >>> with HS is preferred but I am not yet
> > convinced.
> > >>>
> > >>> When I first posted, I gave the following reason
> > for using the
> > >>> indefinite article:
> > >>> The term Holy Spirit is being anartharously
> > introduced for the
> > >>> first time.
> > >>> Something like a character in a play who is
> > making his first
> > >>> appearance.
> > >>> The audience who are "in the know" know it
> > refers to God ... but
> > >>> for the
> > >>> pagans in the audience ...
> > >>> Is it possible that an indefinite translation
> > was intended until the
> > >>> character was more fully developed in subsequent
> > verses?
> > >>>
> > >>> Is there anything wrong with my reasoning here?
> > >>>
> > >>> Dan Gleason
> > >>>
> > >>>
> >
>_________________________________________________________________
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> > >>>
> > >>> ---
> > >>> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
> > >>> B-Greek mailing list
> > >>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > >>>
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Carl W. Conrad
> > >> Department of Classics, Washington University
> > (Emeritus)
> > >> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828)
> > 675-4243
> > >> cwconrad2 at mac.com
> > >> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
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> > > ---
> > > B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
> > > B-Greek mailing list
> > > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> >
> >
> > Carl W. Conrad
> > Department of Classics, Washington University
> > (Emeritus)
> > 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828)
> > 675-4243
> > cwconrad2 at mac.com
> > WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
> >
> > ---
> > B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
> >
>=== message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
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