[B-Greek] re my wooden interlinear translations
Curtis Hinson
curtis at curtishinson.com
Fri Nov 4 18:34:01 EST 2005
I am afraid that whatever wooden aspects you may be seeing in Mark's
text are at least not obvious to me or the rest of us. I really don't
see how Mark is able to be somehow primitive, grotesque Greek and yet
chock full of "visual puns" and stagecraft. It looks to me like an
attempt to exoticize the text, to see every word or turn of phrase as a
juicy steak, dripping with theological meaning. And yet the method
being used to translate is running roughshod over Mark's immediacy and
action-packed narrative. Part of the error here is even seeing Marks'
text in visual terms -- I should think that Mark as much as any book
exudes a strong orality in it's way of narrating. The art of Mark and
other Greek literature lies in the sound of it, not the way it looks on
paper. It's meant to be read aloud, not looked at.
Mark deserves better, and readers of translations should not be led to
think he writes in some sort of "pidgin Greek" by writing in a mockery
of English. It is a type of "ethnic" Greek, but it's not retarded
either. He is not some sort of Greek Shakespeare, but neither does he
write in jerky, stilted, artless fashion to make some obscure point that
only Dan among us is able to get. I would certainly not want to read a
book that does that to Mark, it would be painful.
Bless the Name
Curtis Hinson
P.S. I have trouble getting Firefox to keep my carriage returns in
emails, for some reason. It keeps shoving my text all together. Let's
see if a double CR will help.
Dan Gleason wrote the following on 11/4/2005 4:35 PM:
> Hello George
>
> I thought about doing a "real translation" - as if was a cleaned up,
> proofed, edited, eyewitness or hearsay account - and it doesn't work.
> The most literal wooden translation following Mark's word order brings
> out the visual puns and imagery.
> Every phrase in Mark's text is like a planed plank of wood.
> Every KAI is like a wood joint, a miter, a rabbet, a dado, or a nail.
> Translating into "proper English" obscures or destroys the visual puns
> in the text as it was written.
> I don't even think about proper English when I read Mark.
> When my translation sounds "a little wierd but plausible in a strange
> way" - to me, that's a "sign" that I got it right.
>
> Imitation Is the Sincerest Form of Flattery - but Mimicry is the
> Greatest Form of Flattery.
>
> Dan Gleason
>
>
>
>> From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at juno.com>
>> To: dan-bgreek at hotmail.com
>> CC: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] re my wooden interlinear translations
>> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 16:39:40 -0500
>>
>> On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 15:11:05 -0600 "Dan Gleason"
>> <dan-bgreek at hotmail.com>
>> writes:
>> > re my wooden interlinear translations
>> >
>> > Dr Conrad wrote: Dan, you've made perfectly clear that you intend to
>> > persist
>> > with this "interlinear" mode of transliteration despite the fact
>> > that
>> > several respondents have called attention to its inaccurate
>> > representation
>> > of the sense of the Greek. So here "immerse" for "BAPTIZW" has
>> > been
>> > faulted by several respondents as inaccurate certainy for the
>> > second verb
>> > form here (BAPTISEI), and while you might think "a Holy Spirit"
>> > accurately
>> > represents the Greek text PNEUMATI hAGIWi, what you're deriving
>> > from the
>> > Greek is pidgin- English rather than an equivalent of what the
>> > Greek text
>> > says. What's wrong with this "interlinear" style of "translation"
>> > is that
>> > it's based on an assumption that the "forest" of a sequence of
>> > discourse
>> > is no less and no more than but exactly equal to the sum of the
>> > "trees" of
>> > words inside that sequence. I think that's been stated in
>> > different ways
>> > in several of the responses to your idiosyncratic renderings of
>> > Marcan
>> > texts, but I felt it was worth reiterating "yet once more again,"
>> > despite
>> > the fact that you've made it obvious that you intend to go on
>> > doing it
>> > this way.
>> >
>> > DG: Dr Conrad and others have criticized the way I translate many
>> > times. As
>> > you can deduce, there is a night and day difference between the
>> > grammar in
>> > my posts verses the grammar in my translations. I am very cognizant
>> > of the
>> > fact that my translations sound like pidgin English and that the
>> > grammar is
>> > tortured. I know my translations sound idiosyncratic. And I know it
>> > rubs
>> > many of you the wrong way - it's not a proper translation - it's
>> > frustrating
>> > to read - I should know better - and all that. I thought that the
>> > comment
>> > of the "forest of trees being equal to the sum of the trees" was a
>> > very
>> > accurate description of my translations. I just want you all to know
>> > that is
>> > the way I read the Greek text. I read it in painfully literal way -
>> > and I
>> > do it on purpose - for a purpose. And the reason is not to get
>> > people mad at
>> > me. And the reason is not to make fun of the text. And (kai) the
>> > reason is
>> > not to insult your intelligence. I do it to emulate Marks style,
>> > which
>> > appears on the surface, at times, to be grotesque. I do it because I
>> > am
>> > writing a book on Mark - that views the imagery of the text as a
>> > form of
>> > stagecraft one would see in a Greek play. The scenes are simple and
>> > so are
>> > the props. You have characters and choruses. The descriptions are
>> > minimal.
>> > The dialogue is easy to remember. My commentaries on the text are
>> > going to
>> > be from a metaphorical viewpoint in the style of Friedrich Weinreb
>> > who wrote
>> > Roots of the Bible. The grotesque grammar is not to be corrected.
>> > The
>> > translation is to be as wooden as I can render it. That's where the
>> >
>> > "carpentry" begins. That's what joining this list is all about. I
>> > don't want
>> > any mistakes in my translation. I want my translations to look like
>> > raw
>> > lumber - and out of that lumber I will build the commentary on the
>> > "play."
>> > It's all about visual stagecraft puns.
>> >
>> > So, in closing, I just want to let you all know I am not mad or
>> > upset. I'm
>> > not interested in defending my translations, my take on the text, my
>> >
>> > incorrect grammar, winning anyone over to my point of view, or
>> > anything like
>> > that. I just want to ask some simple questions about how to
>> > literally
>> > translate the text. I thought that doing it through the buffer of a
>> > standard
>> > English bible translation might be the best policy to keep everyone
>> > happy.
>> >
>> > Dan Gleason
>> ______________-
>>
>>> I don't mean to attack or encourage you in your project, but did you
>>> ever
>>
>> consider that a better way might be to do a real translation in which
>> you
>> do not ** mimic ** Mark's Greek style but to attempt to find an **
>> equivalent ** style in English which would convey a sense of what you
>> believe you find in Mark?
>>
>> george
>> gfsomsel
>
> ___________
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar � get it now!
> http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>---
>B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
>B-Greek mailing list
>B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>
>
More information about the B-Greek
mailing list